Mortal sin and follow-through (edited subject)

[JanR]

Those Oxford definitions are precisely the point I was making.

Wish: feel or express a strong desire or hope for something
Desire: strongly wish for or want something
Consent: give permission for something to happen

Just wishing or desiring isn’t giving permission for it to happen. It’s only wanting or desiring, and until actual permission is given, that’s as far as it goes.

Giving consent (having intent) is a decision. It’s something decided, as opposed to wishing or desiring something.

Is the difference really that difficult to see?

 

[Vico]

Those Oxford definitions are precisely the point I was making.

Wish: feel or express a strong desire or hope for something
Desire: strongly wish for or want something
Consent: give permission for something to happen

Just wishing or desiring isn’t giving permission for it to happen. It’s only wanting or desiring, and until actual permission is given, that’s as far as it goes.

Giving consent (having intent) is a decision. It’s something decided, as opposed to wishing or desiring something.

Is the difference really that difficult to see?

We are in partial agreement. There are two sins: interior (see 3) and exterior (see 4). Consent is given to interior and later to exterior, so even without exterior, interior exists.

1. Next the thought is followed by an evil desire in which we take pleasure.

• If, still playing with the thought, the man wishes that he could take the diamond ring without being noticed, the consent is complete, and he commits a sin in his heart (interiorly).

1. The resolution to commit the sin when occasion presents itself follows. Then the exterior act is committed.

• Finally, the man glances to see if the salesman is still busy. Then he takes the ring and walks away with it. Thus the wish or desire has been translated into an exterior act. Even should the man be prevented from stealing, he is guilty of grave sin.

 

[JanR]

Where we seem to disagree is at what point one’s consent is complete. While we should try to avoid evil wishes or desires, and reject them when we have them, wishes and desires alone don’t constitute complete consent, because we haven’t. at that stage, formulated the fullness of our intent to carry out those wishes or desires. We haven’t yet made a conscious, deliberate decision to act upon them, and full intent cannot be established unless or until we’ve made that decision. Merely wanting to do something is a preliminary stage. If it never goes beyond wishing or desiring, then where is the full intention to do it? Where is the permission – the complete consent?

Entertaining such thoughts, and having such wishes, is, I’ll admit, a slippery slope. It can easily lead to full intention and then to acting upon the intention, which is the final element of doing the sin.

I would say that having evil thoughts, wishes and desires is the shadow of sin. It’s a Pandora’s box that hasn’t yet been opened. Opening it up and unleashing the sinful activity upon the world is the stage at which the sin is actually committed.

 

[C.Ray]

It’s a Pandora’s box that hasn’t yet been opened.

Pandora’s box is an interesting analogy. Once the box is cracked, all of the chaos inside is unleashed. That’s a tidy example, because the box is either opened or closed and can’t be both, or undone.

The other examples I came up with aren’t so neat. I presume that in stealing a ring, one has to take delight in having pocketed it for consent to be complete. But in my hypothetical, pocketing the thing provokes the opposite of delight: disgust, whereupon the ring is returned instantly.

That example seems different than Pandora’s box… the box is opened, but the nasties inside are quickly boxed back in.

 

[Gripper]

Mortal sin occurs first in the mind, as soon as the will to do it is formed,

If this is true then most of us must be in a constant state of mortal sin and there would be no point in stopping yourself going through with any action if you have already crossed the line?

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Mortal sin occurs first in the mind, as soon as the will to do it is formed,

If this is true then most of us must be in a constant state of mortal sin and there would be no point in stopping yourself going through with any action if you have already crossed the line?

Did you read the post with Bishop of Krishnagar Louis LaRavoire Marrow, My Catholic Faith - A Manual of Religion? Mortal sin and follow-through (edited subject) - #18 by Vico
See 3 (consent to interior sin) and 4 (exterior sin) below.

1. Sin is not committed without temptation. First an evil thought comes into the mind. This in itself is not sinful; it is only a temptation
2. If we do not immediately reject the thought, it awakens in the mind an affection or liking for it.
3. Next the thought is followed by an evil desire in which we take pleasure. … consent is complete, and he commits a sin in his heart (interiorly).
4. The resolution to commit the sin when occasion presents itself follows. Then the exterior act is committed.

 

[goout]

Justin_Mary:

Best thing would be for you to talk to your priest/confessor

Sure, but in this case its a hypothetical problem.

What’s the point of your hypothetical?
Is it to solve an analogous problem for yourself or a friend?
Is it intellectual curiosity?

These things really don’t lend themselves to satisfying answers, because it’s the nature of hypotheticals to having moving goalposts.
Moral decision making is done in real time in real life.

 

[C.Ray]

What’s the point of your hypothetical?
Is it to solve an analogous problem for yourself or a friend?
Is it intellectual curiosity?

Both really. I’ve had at times issues with scrupulosity, and I’d like to have a better idea of how to discern those edge cases that don’t fall cleanly into the mortal and venial boxes.

 

[goout]

goout:

What’s the point of your hypothetical?
Is it to solve an analogous problem for yourself or a friend?
Is it intellectual curiosity?

Both really. I’ve had at times issues with scrupulosity, and I’d like to have a better idea of how to discern those edge cases that don’t fall cleanly into the mortal and venial boxes.

In my experience, scrupulosity is not helped by more information.
Details can complicate trust.
But ask your favorite trusted confessor.