Mortal sin and full knowledge

[buckr02]

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

I was driving somewhere a few days ago and I suddenly started thinking about mortal sin and some questions I had regarding “full consent.” I just read over the catechism, but am still a bit unsure.

My question is, if someone hears that a certain action is “grave matter” but they do not believe this is true and commit the sin, is it still mortal sin? So for example (this is a really big exaggeration only meant to demonstrate what I mean), if someone does not think killing someone is a big deal and they still do it, is it a mortal sin? They know from others that it is a mortal sin, but for some reason they genuinely do not think it is, as opposed to just denying that it is.

Another situation I thought of was what if the person has heard from some people that an action is a mortal sin and from others he/she has heard it is not. They know that it MIGHT be, but are unsure. Or perhaps if they know the Catholic Churches position but have heard from a priest or someone they trust that it’s not true. Here is where an example like masturbation works well, I think. I myself know it is a mortal sin, but what if someone is in one of the above situations and are unsure for whatever reason and commit the sin?

These were just scenarios I had thought of. They seemed interesting enough to ask here (and no, I’m not just trying to find loopholes ). I guess the real question is whether “full knowledge” means having known from the Church or other source vs. knowing and understanding it personally.

 

[tessi]

If you are catholic, you are obliged to learn the teachings of the Church. If the Church says “this is a mortal sin”, then you can not go saying “I don’t think so”, you have to obey even if everybody tells you other way. That is why we have the Magistery. The “agrees or disagrees” doesn’t count.

 

[ForwardProgress]

I don’t the think the church designates ANYTHING as a mortal sin. It calls certain things grave, and grave matter, but the 3 things are required for a sin to be considered mortal, and only God can convict you of that. Our noble priests are trained to help us figure that part out…but they can’t make the final decision…that will be between you and your maker. They can absolve us, or not absolve us based on our desire to repent.

 

[teachccd]

Here is where an example like masturbation works well, I think. I myself know it is a mortal sin, but what if someone is in one of the above situations and are unsure for whatever reason and commit the sin?

Masturbation IS NOT a mortal sin. It is intrinsically disordered and therefore considered grave matter. This is whether or not one with the knowledge of Church teachings believes that it is or not. Not everyone who masturbates is committing a mortal sin. There must be FULL knowledge of the gravity or seriousness of the sin and FULL consent of the will to act upon the temptation.

I see so many on this forum say that this and that are mortal sins. There is a distinctive difference between grave matter and mortal sin. We need to update ourselves on Church teachings regarding this and rest assured that nobody knows whether someone else has committed a mortal sin. This is discerned in the confessional and ultimately between the person and God…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

I don’t the think the church designates ANYTHING as a mortal sin. It calls certain things grave, and grave matter, but the 3 things are required for a sin to be considered mortal, and only God can convict you of that. Our noble priests are trained to help us figure that part out…but they can’t make the final decision…that will be between you and your maker. They can absolve us, or not absolve us based on our desire to repent.

 

[bobzills]

I don’t the think the church designates ANYTHING as a mortal sin.

I thought that using artificial birth control was a mortal sin and that you would go to hell for that, unless you repented. Similarly, missing Mass on Sunday is a mortal sin.

 

[thistle]

Masturbation IS NOT a mortal sin. It is intrinsically disordered and therefore considered grave matter. This is whether or not one with the knowledge of Church teachings believes that it is or not. Not everyone who masturbates is committing a mortal sin. There must be FULL knowledge of the gravity or seriousness of the sin and FULL consent of the will to act upon the temptation.

I see so many on this forum say that this and that are mortal sins. There is a distinctive difference between grave matter and mortal sin. We need to update ourselves on Church teachings regarding this and rest assured that nobody knows whether someone else has committed a mortal sin. This is discerned in the confessional and ultimately between the person and God…teachccd

Don’t get hung up on the word FULL. If you know the Church teaches something is a grave sin then that is sufficient to cover full knowledge. If you deliberately commit the act knowing it is grave then that is full consent.

 

[coda]

Don’t get hung up on the word FULL. If you know the Church teaches something is a grave sin then that is sufficient to cover full knowledge. If you deliberately commit the act knowing it is grave then that is full consent.

???-- If " FULL" consent is “always” assumed, there is no need to have it be the third 'requirement" that will determine the gravity of the act. It would be a given and not subject to variance. Full consent is never automatic because one is fully aware an act is grave. ie- Murder is not mortally sinful in wartime. Also, being overcome by passion of one form or another lessens" full" consent etc. Any sinful act is deliberate, the intent(end consequences) may not be.

 

[bobzills]

Full consent is never automatic because one is fully aware an act is grave. ie- Murder is not mortally sinful, although grave, in wartime.

I believe that the deliberate killing of innocent non-combatant civilians in wartime is done under pain of eternal damnation.

 

[coda]

I believe that the deliberate killing of innocent non-combatant civilians in wartime is done under pain of eternal damnation.

Intent is what renders an act mortal or not…Obviously , the intentional killing of non-combatants would be mortally sinful.{ if full knowledge is not precluded]

 

[SilentKnight]

I thought that using artificial birth control was a mortal sin and that you would go to hell for that, unless you repented. Similarly, missing Mass on Sunday is a mortal sin.

Bob,

What Teach and Forward are trying to say is that, yes, there are a number of things the Church designates as “serious sins”; however, just because the matter itself is serious doesn’t mean that the person committing the sin is mortally guilty of that sin. Thus, Teach and Forward reserve the label “mortal sin” for only those sins which are grave matter and done with full knowledge and with full consent. Any grave sin committed without full knowledge and full consent is not “mortal sin” in the sense that one is not held “mortally guilty” for it.

Does that make sense?

I think it’s a helpful distinction myself.

SK

 

[SilentKnight]

Don’t get hung up on the word FULL. If you know the Church teaches something is a grave sin then that is sufficient to cover full knowledge. If you deliberately commit the act knowing it is grave then that is full consent.

Like Coda, I would have to disagree with you, Thistle. I haven’t reviewed this section of the catechism in quite a while, so I dont know if it addresses this situation explicitly or not. Regardless, the use of the word “full implies” the existence of “partial” as well. To have full knowledge of the grave sinfulness of a certain act, in my view, means to be full “convicted” about it’s sinfulness. In other words, someone may well be brought up having been taught all the ten commandments and all the precepts of the Church, etc., and yet still not really believe what it is that’s being delcared.

For example, a young “average Jane” Catholic girl is brought up in an average Catholic home, learns all of the above, then goes to a public high school where it is commonly believed that unborn children are not true human persons. She gets caught up in a crowd with the wrong guy, end sup having sex with him one time, feels bad about it later, but ends up pregnant. Freaked out about her situation, at ten weeks she decides to have an abortion. She is well aware of the Catholic teaching that abortion is never acceptable and is always gravely sinful, but she just “doesn’t see it” herself.

Caught up in the cloud of secularism at school, she definitely draws the line at abortiing babies in the third trimester and doesn’t like the idea of aborting them in the second. But in the first trimester, she is really of the opinion that the baby is not a person yet and decides for the abortion.

What she is doing is gravely wroing - whether she thinks so or not. She is also doing it with full consent of her will. (She’s actually probably not in this case. Being “freaked out” as she is about her parents potential reaction, etc., she is acting under duress. But for the purposes of this discussion, we’ll pretend ) But she would not be guilty of “mortal sin” in this case in that she genuinely does not believe that 10 week baby inside her is a real person. She knows the Catholic teaching in her mind, but in her conscience, she is not convinced. Something of this nature would be an example of an absence of full knowledge.

Hope this is helpful to all.

SK

 

[coda]

Like Coda, I would have to disagree with you, Thistle. I haven’t reviewed this section of the catechism in quite a while, so I dont know if it addresses this situation explicitly or not. Regardless, the use of the word “full implies” the existence of “partial” as well. To have full knowledge of the grave sinfulness of a certain act, in my view, means to be full “convicted” about it’s sinfulness. In other words, someone may well be brought up having been taught all the ten commandments and all the precepts of the Church, etc., and yet still not really believe what it is that’s being delcared.

For example, a young “average Jane” Catholic girl is brought up in an average Catholic home, learns all of the above, then goes to a public high school where it is commonly believed that unborn children are not true human persons. She gets caught up in a crowd with the wrong guy, end sup having sex with him one time, feels bad about it later, but ends up pregnant. Freaked out about her situation, at ten weeks she decides to have an abortion. She is well aware of the Catholic teaching that abortion is never acceptable and is always gravely sinful, but she just “doesn’t see it” herself.

Caught up in the cloud of secularism at school, she definitely draws the line at abortiing babies in the third trimester and doesn’t like the idea of aborting them in the second. But in the first trimester, she is really of the opinion that the baby is not a person yet and decides for the abortion.

What she is doing is gravely wroing - whether she thinks so or not. She is also doing it with full consent of her will. (She’s actually probably not in this case. Being “freaked out” as she is about her parents potential reaction, etc., she is acting under duress. But for the purposes of this discussion, we’ll pretend ) But she would not be guilty of “mortal sin” in this case in that she genuinely does not believe that 10 week baby inside her is a real person. She knows the Catholic teaching in her mind, but in her conscience, she is not convinced. Something of this nature would be an example of an absence of full knowledge.

Hope this is helpful to all.

SK

–C.C.C. 1734 THROUGH 1737 is quite helpful in understanding free will and how it relates to the three requisite conditions for sin to be mortal. CONSIDER THAT IT IS ALWAYS BEST TO BRING IT UP WITH A PRIEST IF QUESTIONS ARISE—THEY HAVE THE POWER TO JUDGE CULPABILITY AND FORGIVE …

 

[bobzills]

Bob,

What Teach and Forward are trying to say is that, yes, there are a number of things the Church designates as “serious sins”; however, just because the matter itself is serious doesn’t mean that the person committing the sin is mortally guilty of that sin. Thus, Teach and Forward reserve the label “mortal sin” for only those sins which are grave matter and done with full knowledge and with full consent. Any grave sin committed without full knowledge and full consent is not “mortal sin” in the sense that one is not held “mortally guilty” for it.

Does that make sense?

I think it’s a helpful distinction myself.

SK

That makes sense to some extent, except that my understanding is that Catholics have a serious obligation to know what is expected of them, especially when it comes to mortal sins.

 

[SilentKnight]

I guess the real question is whether “full knowledge” means having known from the Church or other source vs. knowing and understanding it personally.

I would argue that full knowledge means being convinced in one’s own mind, irrespective of where the knowledge comes from, be it religious instruction or simple intuition, ethical instruction, common belief among peers, etc.

But before anyone goes attempting to supress their conscience, be aware of the fact that that very act itself would be mortal, for one thing. And for another, even if someone cannot be held morally responsible for a given act, the damage of the act is still done, which, in some cases, can be very, very serious.

Thus, rather than hide form the truth, we should always be seeking, by grace, to mature in it.

SK

 

[Kathrin]

That makes sense to some extent, except that my understanding is that Catholics have a serious obligation to know what is expected of them, especially when it comes to mortal sins.

Like, we all have to have read the whole catechism and know it by heart???

 

[coda]

I would argue that full knowledge means being convinced in one’s own mind, irrespective of where the knowledge comes from, be it religious instruction or simple intuition, ethical instruction, common belief among peers, etc.

But before anyone goes attempting to supress their conscience, be aware of the fact that that very act itself would be mortal, for one thing. And for another, even if someone cannot be held morally responsible for a given act, the damage of the act is still done, which, in some cases, can be very, very serious.

Thus, rather than hide form the truth, we should always be seeking, by grace, to mature in it.

SK

Well put… We all need to be very careful about self- deception. Ask God for the grace of discernment , so as to properly convict oneself…

 

[SilentKnight]

That makes sense to some extent, except that my understanding is that Catholics have a serious obligation to know what is expected of them, especially when it comes to mortal sins.

And we do.

However…Life is not quite that “simple”. Life is not a matter of memorizing a list of serious sins and simply acting in one wrote manner every time we encounter said prepackaged scenario.

Gotta run or I’d elaborate a little.

SK

 

[ForwardProgress]

Like, we all have to have read the whole catechism and know it by heart???

Of course not! The CCC is a reference guide to what the Church officially teaches. While a great resource, you are not required by pain of sin or anything to read it.

 

[coda]

Like, we all have to have read the whole catechism and know it by heart???

ARE WE ALL EXPECTED TO KNOW “BY HEART” A FULL VOLUME OF ENCYCLOPEDIAS? AND, DO THEY TOO STILL PROVIDE A USEABLE , ACCURATE MEANS FOR KNOWLEDGE FOR THOSE WHO SEEK IT?