Mortal Sin and Hell Question

[AnnaDango]

Here we see, and I think adultery, murder, etc. Can be included in this, that there are indeed things that we all have “knowledge of”.

Murder and adultery (in the sense of cheating and premarital sex, at least) should be no-brainers, and I’d say that the murder of healthy, born persons and cheating on one’s partner are still no-brainers; but, sadly, so many people today have grown up in a culture that says killing (“euthanizing”) the ill and elderly and criminals, murdering unborn children, and having premarital sex is okay–even oftentimes “merciful” and “healthy”. So while the aforementioned things were once very obviously wrong, children today are being taught the exact opposite. So can they really be held fully accountable for their wrong actions if they truly do not know any better? They definitely can’t be excused from some form of punishment, but do they really deserve eternal punishment? It’s a big gray-area that we as humans can never know for-sure the answer to. I just hope that GOD is much more merciful and understanding than some others have made HIM out to be.

And the threat of Hell is real and scary, it is not the purpose of hell to get us to behave, but rather the idea (which is hard for us to imagine) that God owes none of us anything. Not heaven or even immortality. He is all just and all merciful.

It is not the purpose of Hell to get us to behave, yet at the same time it is not to reinforce the idea that God does not owe us anything either. Hell is nothing more than the natural result of an attempted eternity without God. It results in pain, torment, suffering, and an eternal lack of fulfillment, not because it is a punishment or a threat, but because it is the opposite of our entire nature as human beings. Trying to exist without God is its own punishment. We were never made to be without God, as being without God is also being without Love, Beauty, Peace, Hope, Joy and all of the other myriad qualities that fall under the category of Goodness. Hell is a soul spending eternity in ignorance, blindness, hatred, restlessness, pain, torment, shame, fear, selfishness and so on out of their own choice. God does not owe us anything, yet He desires to give us everything that is good for us, which is namely all of Himself. He asks in return that we give Him our love, our trust, and our all, which isn’t a lot to ask when you consider what He is providing in return.

Wow, beautifully put, Kurisu. Thank you to both of you for touching on this subject. I’d never put much thought into the purpose of Hell before.

 

[truetofaith]

Murder and adultery (in the sense of cheating and premarital sex, at least) should be no-brainers, and I’d say that the murder of healthy, born persons and cheating on one’s partner are still no-brainers; but, sadly, so many people today have grown up in a culture that says killing (“euthanizing”) the ill and elderly and criminals, murdering unborn children, and having premarital sex is okay–even oftentimes “merciful” and “healthy”. So while the aforementioned things were once very obviously wrong, children today are being taught the exact opposite. So can they really be held fully accountable for their wrong actions if they truly do not know any better? They definitely can’t be excused from some form of punishment, but do they really deserve eternal punishment? It’s a big gray-area that we as humans can never know for-sure the answer to. I just hope that GOD is much more merciful and understanding than some others have made HIM out to be.
QUOTE]

Are children today being “taught” the opposite of what was known to be sinful, before? Or are they seeing people living sinful lives on TV and also their friends doing likewise.

The 10 Commandments are still the same and so are the teachings of the Catholic & Christian churches.
The “children” of today have to follow what is right & not follow the sinners, so they still must be held accountable!

 

[TK421]

That is one of the requirements for a mortal sin :

It is a mortal sin
the person knows it’s a mortal sin
They want to commit the sin, anyway.

Though at the same time, a person can actively play the role of numbing their conscience overtime until their perception of good and evil is not merely imperfect (as it is with any human being in their damaged nature), but utterly reversed. If I may use an archetypical example: Adolf Hitler, in his final days in the bunker beneath Berlin, told his staff that compassion was a cardinal sin.

He didn’t achieve this state of mind and heart overnight. He developed & nurtured it over years of numbing his conscience & feeding his wrath, until it was strong and well-grown. Holiness and depravity are both attributes of the human person that are a process. If a person commits a grave sin but doesn’t acknowledge it as such, that doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t a mortal sin for them. Outside of the world of comic books and cartoons, nobody actually goes around thinking & saying, “I’m committing mortal sin! Ha ha ha!” They darken and deceive themselves until they are righteous in their own eyes.

The same thing happens with sexuality. This is why in the porn business, a person might start off simply watching & masturbating to two people having sex. Fast forward in time, and the stuff they’re watching could be exceedingly more explicit. They go deeper and deeper down the hole in order to satisfy themselves, like a drug addict craves stronger doses to achieve a new level of high.

 

[ALoveDivine]

I accept the church’s teaching here, though the specific intellectual formulation of it could be open to dispute. For example many within the Eastern Rite don’t make much use of the Mortal/Venial dichotomy. That specific formulation of this truth seems peculiar to the Latin Rite.

What we can know is that those who continue in unrepentant grave sin will not inherit the kingdom of God. Scripture is very clear on that point, let us never doubt it. I noticed this fact even as a Protestant.

Many of the other posters are quite right, in that we should trust in the mercy of God and not presume to know the state of another’s soul. The best course for all of us, in my view, is to live a sacramental life involving regular confession (even weekly) and of course receiving the Eucharist.

Rather than obsessing over formulations and lists of sins, is this mortal is this not etc, let’s just make sure to undergo the Sacrament of Penance regularly. In fact, we should probably confess all of our sins that were aware of, and not limit it to the ones we conceive of as “mortal”.

 

[punisherthunder]

I still try to think that mortal sin is not an automatic one way ticket to Hell.

God is a judge. A judge is someone who reviews someone’s crimes and weighs it against the principle of justice that has been established.

If mortal sin is automatic, this would take away to a degree the purpose of God serving as a judge. Then it would seem that life becomes a “gotcha” moment. Die with mortal sin and suddenly you lose salvation.

God is a judge for a reason. Judges hear both sides.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I still try to think that mortal sin is not an automatic one way ticket to Hell.

God is a judge. A judge is someone who reviews someone’s crimes and weighs it against the principle of justice that has been established.

If mortal sin is automatic, this would take away to a degree the purpose of God serving as a judge. Then it would seem that life becomes a “gotcha” moment. Die with mortal sin and suddenly you lose salvation.

God is a judge for a reason. Judges hear both sides.

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence.** Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. **On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84

Are you saying that the Church is wrong? Or is your Idea wrong?

 

[punisherthunder]

Are you saying that the Church is wrong? Or is your Idea wrong?

I am saying that God is a judge. Judges make decisions, not “orders in a snap”.

What about the Divine Mercy? Jesus said to St. Faustina that if this is said by the dying or in the presence of someone dying that he intermediates and becomes a Savior for that person at the moment of death. Does the Divine Mercy override mortal sins in the face of the dying? What about those who believe in the private revelations as such? Those who don’t?

A judge would review all this. In this case, it is for God to review.

 

[CompSciGuy]

If a person dies in the state of mortal sin, do they automatically go to Hell?
I thought as long as the person’s a genuinely good person they won’t go to Hell. They’ll still go to Purgatory, but they won’t go to Hell. But on another thread people are saying that if you die in mortal sin you automatically go to Hell, no matter what.

The Catechism says that if you die in a state of mortal sin, then you will go to hell.

So are the billions of people committing billions of mortal sins every day going to go to Hell when they die? What if a Catholic is in mortal sin, and they die on the way to Confession? What about all my friends having premarital sex? They’re perfectly good people except for this sin. Are they going to Hell? Please provide quotes from the Bible and/or Catechism.

As for the Catholic in his/her way to confession, obviously if that person is repentant he/she wants to be right with God. God is merciful. As for the billions of people and your good friends, let me quote Jesus Christ:

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” Matthew 7:12-16

So there you have it. We can argue about the Church’s teachings on culpability all we want. But we can’t argue with these words of Jesus. The fact of the matter is, even “good” people are sinners in the eyes of God. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). We need grace, we need faith, we need the sacraments, we need the gospel. Pray for the world.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I think it is sinful to speculate on people’s culpability. As some have said, God is the judge. Sin is sin, no matter how much we rationalize it or excuse it. The world needs the gospel. I do not think that God will be an easy judge, the scriptures seem to erase this belief from my mind. I think some Catholics take the teachings of Lumen Gentium and run too far with them. We know from the scriptures that while we are on earth, it is our responsibility to bring the gospel to people, and that salvation is through the gospel. Let us rely on the gospel to bring salvation to the world and not some vague hope that those who reject Christ and his teachings are not culpable for their rejection.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Sorry I keep posting here.

I recommend that everyone listen to Scott Hahn’s “Why is there a Hell.” It’s available from Lighthouse Catholic Media.

 

[fhansen]

I still try to think that mortal sin is not an automatic one way ticket to Hell.

God is a judge. A judge is someone who reviews someone’s crimes and weighs it against the principle of justice that has been established.

If mortal sin is automatic, this would take away to a degree the purpose of God serving as a judge. Then it would seem that life becomes a “gotcha” moment. Die with mortal sin and suddenly you lose salvation.

God is a judge for a reason. Judges hear both sides.

Mortal sin is a radical turning away from God, an act against love- of Him and neighbor-and persistence in this act or state according to the catechism. Its not about some last-moment mistake made by an otherwise reasonably decent person who dies before making it to confession and then forfeits eternal life on a technicality. God wants us holy; He also wants us with Him and is working to get us there; He’s in no way hoping to minimize occupied space in heaven.

 

[Even_So]

I just find it very hard to believe that the Loving GOD would allow so many of HIS children to be lost to Hell.

And I agree with someone who stated above, how is HE winning if the majority of HIS children never experience eternal life? But I really can’t see our Loving GOD condemning so many to Hell, especially when I know so many good non-Christians and sinners.

GOD does not send us to hell. We send ourselves. It is our job to tell people they have a choice.
And that is a good question as to how He is winning if there are more sinners than believers. That is why He takes as long as it takes. GOD is slow to anger, thank Him .
And i mistakenly hit your bio. Girl, what is up? You gotta shake this funk. See, by CHRIST’s sacrifice, you have won! Do you believe He died for you? That itself should be enough for you to know a GOD so far above, so incomprehensible to the human mind, so loves* you* that he gave up his only Son. It’s really so amazing, if you think on it for a minute. When you are feeling down, look up! Even so, come LORD JESUS!

Nehemiah 9:17Easy-to-Read Version (ERVR
17 They refused to listen.
They forgot the amazing things you did with them.
They became stubborn.
They decided to return to Egypt and become slaves again.
“But you are a forgiving God!
You are kind and full of mercy.
You are patient and full of love.
So you didn’t leave them!

On “believers”. Kills me too. I have “Christian” friends and co-workers. Who are we to judge where they will end up? It’s where they wanna go. I say suntin once, then like the scriptures say over and over, they forget or falls on deaf ears. And i don’t worry about it no more.

Matthew 15:8New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
8 ‘This people honors me with their lips,[a]
but their hearts are far from me;

James 5:8New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

8 You too must be patient. Make your hearts firm, because the coming of the Lord is at hand.

 

[Even_So]

If a person dies in the state of mortal sin, do they automatically go to Hell?
I thought as long as the person’s a genuinely good person they won’t go to Hell. What about all my friends having premarital sex? They’re perfectly good people except for this sin. Are they going to Hell? Please provide quotes from the Bible and/or Catechism.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
20 yet there is no one on earth so just as to do good and never sin.

Romans 3:10 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
10 as it is written: “There is no one just, not one,

So obviously, we are not perfectly good people. We are born into sin. We die in it. Yet if we are GOD’s, we are forgiven. If we ask in the name of JESUS.

1 John 1:9 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.

 

[Even_So]

Hey Anna, here is a song to pick you up. Are you a friend of GOD?

youtube.com/watch?v=-U0fdcIhXzw

Hope it’s within the rules.