Mortal sin and holy days worldwide

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slanzill

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I’ve searched high and low for this answer and nobody knows. I’ve gone to priests, deacons, written to my own diocese, etc and nobody can answer this question.

Start by saying I’m a cradle Catholic and I regularly practice my faith. My question is about a specific teach of the church. If a person, for no good reason, misses mass on December 8th (Immaculate Conception of Mary), which is a Holy Day of Obligation, the church teaches that it is a mortal sin. They also teach that if you have mortal sin on your soul you cannot get into heaven or even purgatory. This is all in the Catechism. Now my question is…if they are going to label something a “Mortal Sin”, where our salvation is in jeopardy if unconfessed, shouldn’t these rules apply to “all” Catholics? I’ll give you an example…if you live in Canada, Dec. 8th is not a Holy day of obligation. How can they tell people that they are in the state of mortal sin, which will send you to hell if unconfessed, based on your geography of where you live? A mortal sin is a very grave matter and to say that some people are expected to attend mass on certain days and others aren’t or else you’re in mortal sin sounds crazy to me. Shouldn’t these days of obligations that are not worldwide kind of be like Ash Wednesday…where they church encourages you to go, but it’s not required for your salvation? Either change the rules to that OR make all the holy days of obligation the same world wide. It just doesn’t make sense that God is going to send someone to hell for not choosing to go to mass, based on their geographical residence. I’m looking for an answer to this specific question without a lecture as to why we should “want” to go on these days. That’s usually the response that I get from others I’ve asked, however it does not address my question. How can the Catholic Church attach a mortal sin label on something that is not required of everyone? Shouldn’t a mortal sin be a mortal sin regardless of where you live?
 
slanzill said:
If a person, for no good reason, misses mass on December 8th (Immaculate Conception of Mary), which is a Holy Day of Obligation, the church teaches that it is a mortal sin.
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The Church teaches that if we miss a day of obligation (and Dec 8 isn’t a day of obligation everywhere) without a just reason it is grave matter.

Mortal sin requires knowledge and will in addition to grave matter.
slanzill said:
shouldn’t these rules apply to “all” Catholics?
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No.
slanzill said:
based on your geography of where you live?
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The sinful nature of failing in the obligation is one of obedience, not geography.
slanzill said:
Shouldn’t a mortal sin be a mortal sin regardless of where you live?
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The sin is one of disobedience.
slanzill said:
I’ve searched high and low for this answer and nobody knows. I’ve gone to priests, deacons, written to my own diocese, etc and nobody can answer this question.
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That seems unlikely as it isn’t a difficult question.
 
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Hmmm…I guess you know more than the priests, deacons and diocese. Can you tell me where it says that the mortal sin is one of obedience or is that just your opinion. I’m looking for facts. What is the basis for asking this of people? You mean if the church told me to stand on my head and spin wooden nickels I would have to do it or I’d be in mortal sin which could send me to hell? Your responses seemed rather cold. I’m looking for genuine insite that I"m struggling with.
 
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slanzill said:
You mean if the church told me to stand on my head and spin wooden nickels I would have to do it or I’d be in mortal sin which could send me to hell?
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Such acrobatics are not matters of Faith or Morals.

Attending Mass is a matter over which your Bishops have jurisdiction.

Our Bishops are due our obedience. Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1900

Edit to add. I remember when I was a kid. There were times when I was told to go to my room and stay there.

This did not mean that I had to stay there for the rest of my life, in fact, the next morning I was expected to leave my room and get ready for the day.

It would have been disobedience to leave my room when sent there by my loving parents. The same act, leaving my room, was not disobedience the next day.
 
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I agree with honoring authority. But it’s completely different for them to pull something out of a hat (so to speak) and threaten one’s salvation if they don’t do what they’re told. We’re talking about not attending mass on Dec. 8th…not murder, rape or other very grave offenses. I don’t understand attaching the mortal sin label to something that would not be expected of everyone. Murder…doesn’t matter where you live, it’s a mortal sin. Rape…doesn’t matter where you live, it’s a mortal sin. Those are TRULY grave matters. If something is ‘grave’ enough to be considered a mortal sin, it should be worldwide. A sin is a sin is a sin. Should not matter where you live.
 
Easy: The localized power of binding and loosing. The Bishop has that authority. That is why some holy days are moved to the nearest weekend.

“Obligation”? What about “Love”? Is not love the rule we follow? If we love someone, we desire to spend time with them, right? Or do we blow them off and go to the game or drinking with friends?

To quote Bo Diddley: “Who do you love?”
 
I completely agree with the obedience example of when you were a child. But this different. What if your parents told you that if you left your room they would kill you and you would die? Would that be right? That would make no sense. Well that’s what mortal sin does to someone…they lose their eternal life and die…(unless confessed of course). I guess I’m thinking along the lines of punishment fitting the crime here. LOL Nobody that I’ve spoken to can understand this teaching…priests, deacons, very very devout catholic, etc. Many of them tell me that Vatican II changed things and that the church no longer would condemn someone to hell just for missing mass on Dec. 8th.
 
slanzill said:
Hmmm…I guess you know more than the priests, deacons and diocese.
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Seems odd they couldn’t answer your question.
slanzill said:
Can you tell me where it says that the mortal sin is one of obedience or is that just your opinion. I’m looking for facts.
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It is not opinion. The canons of the Church are disciplines, which come from the governing authority of the bishops. You can review the catechism sections on authority, the governing office, obedience, and the third commandment.

1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us. From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to “obey and submit” to the Church’s leaders, holding them in respect and affection

Can. 11 Merely ecclesiastical laws bind those who have been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, possess the efficient use of reason, and, unless the law expressly provides otherwise, have completed seven years of age.

Can. 12 §1. Universal laws bind everywhere all those for whom they were issued.

§2. All who are actually present in a certain territory, however, are exempted from universal laws which are not in force in that territory.

§3. Laws established for a particular territory bind those for whom they were issued as well as those who have a domicile or quasi-domicile there and who at the same time are actually residing there, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 13.

Can. 13 §1. Particular laws are not presumed to be personal but territorial unless it is otherwise evident.

§2. Travelers are not bound:

1/ by the particular laws of their own territory as long as they are absent from it unless either the transgression of those laws causes harm in their own territory or the laws are personal;

2/ by the laws of the territory in which they are present, with the exception of those laws which provide for public order, which determine the formalities of acts, or which regard immovable goods located in the territory.

§3. Transients are bound by both universal and particular laws which are in force in the place where they are present.
slanzill said:
What is the basis for asking this of people?
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https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7O.HTM
slanzill said:
You mean if the church told me to stand on my head and spin wooden nickels I would have to do it or I’d be in mortal sin which could send me to hell?
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That isn’t a matter of faith or morals. So, no.
 
slanzill said:
Many of them tell me that Vatican II changed things and that the church no longer would condemn someone to hell just for missing mass on Dec. 8th.
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“The Church” doesn’t condemn anyone to hell, and never did. Vatican II has nothing to do with anything.

Holy Days of Obligation remain a requirement. The Pope with the Bishops have the authority to decide which holy days are required in their territory and which are not.

A person condemns themselves to hell by acts of their free will.
 
slanzill said:
I don’t understand attaching the mortal sin label to something that would not be expected of everyone.
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Everyone is expected to attend Mass on Sundays and holy days. The specific holy days vary by location.

In Ireland, St Patrick’s day is a HDO because it’s the patronal feast of their country. It’s not a HDO in Belgium, because St Patrick has no cultural or specific relevance there. In Ireland, they celebrate and remember their patronal saint on March 17.

Immaculate Conception (Dec 8) is a holy day in the US, always, because it is the patronal feast day of our coutnry. We are asked to attend Mass that day to honor our patron saint. It’s just a different day than the people in Ireland honor theirs, or those in Belgium, or wherever.

The patronal feast is usually a HDO. But the bishops’ conferences have the authority to decide for their own territories, in consultation with the Pope.
 
People go to hell because they want to. They have purposfully, intentionally, rejected God.

God honors their wishes.

God is not a big bully hoping to “gotcha” catch you in the act and throw you in hell.

Abraham was willing to sacrifice his own son to obey God. Seems to me showing up at Mass is literally the least I can do.
 
I think what the church teaches is that it is a grave matter to miss a day of obligation without good reason. (And the specifics of what those days are are determined by the designated authority.) So it is worldwide in that sense - the church determines which “type” of obedience is of particular importance, which includes these kinds of obligations.

I don’t really understand why missing a day of obligation would be considered especially grave either, but then again I am not Catholic. To be fair though, I think you could apply this thinking to very many sins, and be left only with the ones most obviously recognizable as “grave” to any human. This leads to something of a secular humanist morality, rather than Catholic. Just my thoughts.
 
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@slanzill

It’s a sin of grave matter because of the act of disobedience, not because of not attending Mass on X or Y day on the calendar in a particular part of the globe. In addition to geographic region, Holy Days of Obligation have also changed based on the time period.
 
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If missing a mass on August 15th is so “grave” then is should be grave worldwide. If everyone is not required to do this, then it cannot be that “Grave”. Only ONE has been given the position of infalliblility. There is something wrong with our system if the church allows many individuals (bishops) to make different requirements based on their own individual opinion, when it comes to mortal sin and salvation. Bishops should be allowed to dictate how things are operated in their diocese and how we will come together to support and be obedience to the rules of the “Catholic Church” as a whole. Bishops are not infallible and should not be granted the authority to change the rules for what is and is not required to get into heaven. Not going to mass on August 15th really has nothing to do with Faith and Morals. Mass is offered daily and if someone chooses not to go on a Tuesday morning, that does not mean they do not have faith. And again, if it’s so “Moral” that we should attend on a particular day, then that should be for everyone. If an individual Bishop is NOT infallible then they should not have the right to decide if we are in mortal sin or not. And before someone brings it up, this is completely different from priests being able to forgive sins in the confessional. Jesus gave his disciples the authority to FORGIVE sins…NOT to decide what is or is not a sin.

It’s no wonder our precious Catholic Church is losing numbers like crazy. It’s rules like this that make people scratch their heads and think, “Hmmm, something isn’t right here. This makes absolutely no sense to have different requirements depending on what diocese you live in”. It’s systems like this that DRIVE PEOPLE AWAY from our church. We are supposed to be bringing people to Christ through our church and instead they are being driven away because nobody wants to acknowledge the flaws.
 
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  1. Mass is an occasion of joy and spiritual growth and union with the faithful and with Our Lord, not a burden.
  2. The sin is in the act of disobedience.
If parents set a curfew at 9:00, then it’s a sin to deliberately break the curfew.
If another parent in another house sets a curfew at 9:30, then it’s a sin to deliberately break that curfew.

The specifics aren’t the same but what matters is the act and the intent.
 
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I think I begin to understand the issue about “no one can answer”. It is not that no one can answer or no one knows, it is that you refuse to accept the logic of the correct answers you have been given. Entirely different issue.
 
The problem is the church giving bishops the authority to make regulations and attach that word “Mortal” sin to it. Mortal sin keeps you from heaven. Bishops should not be allowed to make that kind of a judgement. They should have authority within their diocese to run their own diocese, do decide what days confirmation/communion would be on, to decide what priests go where, to train priests, to teach doctrine (not to create doctrine, but to teach that which is inspired by the holy spirit to the Pope who is infallible), to govern the diocese financially, to make sure the sacraments are administered, etc. But when it comes to making rules that will be considered a “grave sin”…that makes no sense to let each one decide for themselves what is considered Grave and what isn’t. I’m quite shocked that nobody here understands what I’m trying to say. I’ve brought this up to SO MANY Catholic Authorities in the church and also many devout Catholics, and they all completely see my point, but cannot provide an answer.

Sad that our church will continue to decline in numbers because people are either afraid to say something that goes against the church or they refuse to open their minds to common sense and just want to go along with something because that’s what they were told to do without questions…why? The only one who should not be questioned is God himself. Everyone else is human and laws are made by humans and you have to ask yourself why am I being told to believe this or that? What’s the reason behind it?
If more protestants “did their homework” and really asked themselves “why” they believe what they are being told about the Catholic Church instead of just believing it because someone told them to, then most of them would likely become Catholic. Protestants are fed SO MUCH misinformation about our church and they just believe it because someone of authority in their church says it so. But if they really dig deep and research our beliefs and practices they will see that the Catholic church really was started by Jesus himself, they would see that we indeed DO NOT worship Mary, but rather honor her. They would see that we DO NOT worship statues, but use them figuratively as a memorial of who it stands for. They would be able to make the connection that priests are the disciples whom Jesus gave the authority to forgive sins. They would see that Peter was our first Pope and Jesus himself gave Peter the “keys to the kingdom”. But unfortunately most of them do not question anything and therefor Protestant numbers are growing and Catholic numbers are declining. These rules that make no sense adds to that. It’s all so frustrating to me.
 
I refuse to accept the logic? Show me the logic and I will accept it. There is no logic here, which is precisely my point.
 
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