Mortal sin and inclusivism

[Boywonder23k]

I am a Lutheran and potential convert to Catholicism. I am having a very difficult time understanding the Catholic position on salvation post Vatican 2. Here is the catholoc position as I understand it and please correct me where I am wrong.

To be saved as a catholic- one must be baptized, have faith in God that produces meritorious works, be free of mortal sin, observe the sacriments. (not easy but seems like one has good odds here)

To be Protestant (separated brethren) and be saved- be baptized, have faith in God that produces meritorious works, hope that invinciple ignorance can make up for the mortal sins that you have done throughout your life. (seems like not very good odds)

Heathen religions (Muslims, Hindus, etc)- follow your conscious and pursue truth. (What?!?!)
Is baptism necessary or not? How can these people be free of mortal sin with no priest to confess to? The last two popes and numerous cardinals (Pell) have seemed to say that everyone who generically moves toward truth and goodness will be saved even if they don’t choose Jesus. Annonymous Christian or whatever. I really don’t get this at all.

I know that no one can judge but God who is and isn’t saved but the Church leads people to salvation and should have basic guidelines available. I simply don’t understand how catholic doctrine is reconciled post V2 now that everyone outside of the catholic faith is not condemned. Please help! Links welcome.

 

[Joe_5859]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. [336]

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. [337]

CCC 848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” [338]

[335] Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21L 3,1169; De unit.L 4,509-536.
[336] LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.
[337] LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.
[338] AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16.​

If you search here on CAF, you’ll find a lot of threads that discuss this topic. Basically it comes down to the fact that (as CCC 1257 states), “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.”

Being baptized into the Catholic Church (and of course, living out the Christian life in a state of grace) is the ordinary way God saves. This is the way He has revealed to us as the sure path to eternal life.

However, the Church leaves open the possibility that God might choose to work outside of the sacraments if He so chooses. He is God, after all. This gives us a reason to hope for those who have died outside the visible confines of the Church. It also prevents us from presuming to judge the souls of others or fall into the trap of presuming superiority just because of our faith.

 

[Actaeon]

To be saved as a catholic- one must be baptized, have faith in God that produces meritorious works, be free of mortal sin, observe the sacriments. (not easy but seems like one has good odds here)

Close… faith does not produce good works, nor specifically the other way around. Living faith and the works of God are part and parcel, one and the same in the being that opens us to receive grace… kind of like your lungs and the air, take away either, and you would have no life.

To be Protestant (separated brethren) and be saved- be baptized, have faith in God that produces meritorious works, hope that invinciple ignorance can make up for the mortal sins that you have done throughout your life. (seems like not very good odds)

Close enough! Although if there was, say, some christian sect that did not believe in baptism and therefore a person in it was not baptised but was wholly invincibly ignorant and met all other needs for salvation, then we would HOPE (as the heathen mentioned below) that they would be saved anyway.

Heathen religions (Muslims, Hindus, etc)- follow your conscious and pursue truth. (What?!?!)

Not just follow your conscience… but to follow the moral law! The moral law is that which the conscience is capable of discovering through rational thought. If a person does not search for rational truth in the moral law, then they are guilty of their failure to do so.

Also, the heathen must hope that their invincible ignorance LIKEWISE shields them in the same way that a protestant’s MIGHT shield them. There is no assurance of salvation for them.

Is baptism necessary or not?

Absolutely

How can these people be free of mortal sin with no priest to confess to? The last two popes and numerous cardinals (Pell) have seemed to say that everyone who generically moves toward truth and goodness will be saved even if they don’t choose Jesus.

They have said no such thing! What they have said is that we might HOPE for the salvation of those who are truly good and truly invincibly ignorant simply through lack of proper catechesis. If they ARE truly invincibly ignorant, we trust that God will give them SOME chance at accepting Him, at which time they will receive the grace of baptism and be saved… we HOPE, we don’t know.

You see, to us baptism in water is not the only form of baptismal grace… there is also baptism by blood (the martyr’s death) and baptism by desire, but God may install the grace of baptism on anyone He pleases (does He? We don’t know)… including the invincibly ignorant heathen or unbaptised christian who, had they been exposed to the necessity of baptism and God would surely have chosen that for themselves.

 

[clem456]

Keep in mind that salvation subsists in the Catholic Church. It does not consist of membership in, the Catholic Church.
All who are saved are saved through and are part of the Catholic Church, whether they explicitly professed it or not on this earth.
But all members of the Catholic Church are not necessarly saved.

 

[Della]

I am a Lutheran and potential convert to Catholicism. I am having a very difficult time understanding the Catholic position on salvation post Vatican 2. Here is the catholoc position as I understand it and please correct me where I am wrong.

To be saved as a catholic- one must be baptized, have faith in God that produces meritorious works, be free of mortal sin, observe the sacriments. (not easy but seems like one has good odds here)

The Church has never taught that one must be baptized in water to be saved. One may also be saved through baptism of desire and baptism of blood. Christ is the one who established baptism, but he left it up to the Church to define it and practice it. Good works and faith are both possible through God’s grace and God’s grace alone. “Works” that are not done in and through God’s grace means nothing–they are the “dross” St. Paul wrote about that will be burned up as useless.

The sacraments are given to us as the ordinary means of receiving God’s grace, but he bestows grace upon everyone because of the redemption Christ achieved on the cross, therefore all may be saved who act upon the grace God gives them, and becomes, through God’s grace, the person he wants them to be. Holiness is obtainable to all through God’s grace.

God is not bound by the sacraments. He can and does operate outside of them, but for us who have access to them, we would be negligent to not avail ourselves of them, thus denying God’s gifts. To whom much is given much is required. If we can receive the sacraments we need to do so or be disobedient and ungrateful.

To be Protestant (separated brethren) and be saved- be baptized, have faith in God that produces meritorious works, hope that invinciple ignorance can make up for the mortal sins that you have done throughout your life. (seems like not very good odds)

Heathen religions (Muslims, Hindus, etc)- follow your conscious and pursue truth. (What?!?!)
Is baptism necessary or not? How can these people be free of mortal sin with no priest to confess to? The last two popes and numerous cardinals (Pell) have seemed to say that everyone who generically moves toward truth and goodness will be saved even if they don’t choose Jesus. Annonymous Christian or whatever. I really don’t get this at all.

I know that no one can judge but God who is and isn’t saved but the Church leads people to salvation and should have basic guidelines available. I simply don’t understand how catholic doctrine is reconciled post V2 now that everyone outside of the catholic faith is not condemned. Please help! Links welcome.

The Church has not changed any doctrine/dogmas post V2. What it has done is clarify its constant teaching as found in the Catechism, as Joe5859 posted it. I hope that helps you.

 

[thistle]

I am a Lutheran and potential convert to Catholicism. I am having a very difficult time understanding the Catholic position on salvation post Vatican 2. Here is the catholoc position as I understand it and please correct me where I am wrong.

To be saved as a catholic- one must be baptized, have faith in God that produces meritorious works, be free of mortal sin, observe the sacriments. (not easy but seems like one has good odds here)

To be Protestant (separated brethren) and be saved- be baptized, have faith in God that produces meritorious works, hope that invinciple ignorance can make up for the mortal sins that you have done throughout your life. (seems like not very good odds)

Heathen religions (Muslims, Hindus, etc)- follow your conscious and pursue truth. (What?!?!)
Is baptism necessary or not? How can these people be free of mortal sin with no priest to confess to? The last two popes and numerous cardinals (Pell) have seemed to say that everyone who generically moves toward truth and goodness will be saved even if they don’t choose Jesus. Annonymous Christian or whatever. I really don’t get this at all.

I know that no one can judge but God who is and isn’t saved but the Church leads people to salvation and should have basic guidelines available. I simply don’t understand how catholic doctrine is reconciled post V2 now that everyone outside of the catholic faith is not condemned. Please help! Links welcome.

My summary:

Church teaching:

• Baptism is necessary for salvation (but does not ensure it as you must die in a state of grace).
• There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

So how can you be baptised and Catholic/deemed to be Catholic? There are 4 ways:

• Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
• Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic Faith)
• Baptism of Desire - Explicit (e.g. a catechumen going through RCIA)
• Baptism of Desire - Implicit (invincible ignorance which means those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, His Gospel, or His Church but still live a life according to the teachings of Christ in that ignorance)

You can debate who may or may not be included under invincible ignorance but outside the above 4 there is no salvation.

Not all Catholics go to Heaven but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.