Mortal sin and not knowing

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No, it is grave matter though (not venial). It’s still a very problematic state for the individual to be in, but it does not necessarly seperate the individaul from God. It still needs to be confessed though, particularly when the individuals contience comes to realize the magnitude of the sin.
only grave sins (mortal, serious–all the same) that have been committed need to be confessed…though I would still recommend things that involve grave matter still be confessed noting that one is not sure if they were grave sins when a person realizes it as you say…

from the compedium of the catechism
  1. Which sins must be confessed?
1456

All grave sins not yet confessed, which a careful examination of conscience brings to mind, must be brought to the sacrament of Penance. The confession of serious sins is the only ordinary way to obtain forgiveness.
  1. When is a person obliged to confess mortal sins?
1457

Each of the faithful who has reached the age of discretion is bound to confess his or her mortal sins at least once a year and always before receiving Holy Communion.
  1. Why can venial sins also be the object of sacramental confession?
1458

The confession of venial sins is strongly recommended by the Church, even if this is not strictly necessary, because it helps us to form a correct conscience and to fight against evil tendencies. It allows us to be healed by Christ and to progress in the life of the Spirit.
  1. When does one commit a mortal sin?
1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.
  1. When does one commit a venial sin?
1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.
 
Sorry, but I think that’s ridiculous! If that’s really true, then that confirms my nagging feeling that I wish I was born somewhere/something else besides Catholic. How is that right where people ignorant can masturbate and not have to sit through Church while I have to? How does that make ANY sense at all!?
I can’t tell you how sad it makes me to hear you say this.

I didn’t grow up knowing God at all… had ZERO concept that He cared about me or loved me in the least. I thought when I died. that was it - I’d be dead. There were no “rules” that I knew of so I lived a wreckless crazy life which caused me SO much pain - I can’t even tell you. When I finally decided to try to figure out “God” on my own I got involved in all kinds of crazy religions… I didn’t have any way of knowing what was true and what wasn’t. One particular cult really screwed up my brain. It was awful. Finally, when I was 35 years old through the grace of God I found the Catholic Church. Every single week I almost have to pinch myself… I am SOOOO THANKFUL I found the actual church Jesus Christ started. I can’t believe I get to receive Him in the Eucharist. I look at all those years I spent totally lost and I could literally cry tears of joy - I am so thankful I found HIM! That probably sounds lame to you because you don’t know how good you have it. It’s trying to tell a person who gets to eat Thanksgiving dinner whenever they want what it’s like to be starving.

Please try not to look it at like you have to “sit through Church.” Can you even imagine what that must sound like to Jesus? To hear you complain that it’s so unfair that you are stuck at the foot of the cross? 😦
 
Sorry, but I think that’s ridiculous! If that’s really true, then that confirms my nagging feeling that I wish I was born somewhere/something else besides Catholic. How is that right where people ignorant can masturbate and not have to sit through Church while I have to? How does that make ANY sense at all!?
Its called vincible ignorance (as opposed to invincible ignorance). However, people cannot get away with claiming they didn’t know such and such was a grave sin. Everyone must make the effort to learn what the Church teaches and understand why. If anyone takes the attitude that ignorance is bliss then that will not save them.
 
I have been reading about mortal sin - how the Catechism defines it, and the three requirements to make a sin mortal. (Knowing it’s a sin, Grave Matter, and Full Consent of the Will.)

The thing I always wonder is Who decides what is “grave matter”? Is grave matter the same for everybody, or does it depend on other factors? It seems like there are some sins that can sort of range from venial in some cases into mortal in other cases depending on the intent of the person committing the act or the situation in which the act was committed. In other words, my questions are, Who decides/How does the church decide what is grave matter? and does grave matter vary in some situations?

Also, full consent of the will can seem easy at first, but I have been asked questions from young men on retreats about how to know whether they have fully consented to a sin. For example, many if not most young men struggle with purity. On EWTN’s Crossing the Goal there was a fact that said something like 24 million Americans are addicted to sex. One question is, if a young man, or any man for that matter, is struggling with purity and ends up masturbating is it always a mortal sin? (masturbation is listed as a mortal sin in my church’s examination of conscience booklets that are used for confession). Many people go to confession nearly every week or just decide not to receive communion each week because of their struggle, and feel like they are being punished (by the church’s teaching on receiving the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin) for engaging in this battle. I struggle to explain these teachings of the Church. How does one with an addiction or a deep struggle decide when they need to go to confession or whether or not they can receive the Eucharist?

Take that a step further and see that some kids are diagnosed with different mental conditions such as ADD, ADHD, and other disorders. One boy I know is diagnosed with some sort of “compulsive disorder.” It seems like he can’t control his own behavior. Are there different standards for different people? How do we know? For example, would a very compulsive person be held to the same standards as less compulsive people, and if so, shouldn’t those little examination of conscience booklets take note of that?

Please help me find truth to these complicated questions!
 
I find it very hard to believe that people who sin, or commit mortal sins will go to Heaven. Even if someone does not know it is mortal, they don’t have a good relationship with God, so I don’t get how they would go to Heaven? Doesn’t make sense to me. That’s a very easy way out for those people. …just stay ignorant ??
Ignorance in this case means really ignorant. To have even a qualm or two would require one to look into the matter. One who knows he is ignorant and thinks it is a way out is in for a surprise. Staying ignorant, once one realizes it, is no longer an extenuating circumstance.👍
 
I have been reading about mortal sin - how the Catechism defines it, and the three requirements to make a sin mortal. (Knowing it’s a sin, Grave Matter, and Full Consent of the Will.)

The thing I always wonder is Who decides what is “grave matter”? Is grave matter the same for everybody, or does it depend on other factors? It seems like there are some sins that can sort of range from venial in some cases into mortal in other cases depending on the intent of the person committing the act or the situation in which the act was committed. In other words, my questions are, Who decides/How does the church decide what is grave matter? and does grave matter vary in some situations?

Also, full consent of the will can seem easy at first, but I have been asked questions from young men on retreats about how to know whether they have fully consented to a sin. For example, many if not most young men struggle with purity. On EWTN’s Crossing the Goal there was a fact that said something like 24 million Americans are addicted to sex. One question is, if a young man, or any man for that matter, is struggling with purity and ends up masturbating is it always a mortal sin? (masturbation is listed as a mortal sin in my church’s examination of conscience booklets that are used for confession). Many people go to confession nearly every week or just decide not to receive communion each week because of their struggle, and feel like they are being punished (by the church’s teaching on receiving the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin) for engaging in this battle. I struggle to explain these teachings of the Church. How does one with an addiction or a deep struggle decide when they need to go to confession or whether or not they can receive the Eucharist?

Take that a step further and see that some kids are diagnosed with different mental conditions such as ADD, ADHD, and other disorders. One boy I know is diagnosed with some sort of “compulsive disorder.” It seems like he can’t control his own behavior. Are there different standards for different people? How do we know? For example, would a very compulsive person be held to the same standards as less compulsive people, and if so, shouldn’t those little examination of conscience booklets take note of that?

Please help me find truth to these complicated questions!
From the Catechism:

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

the Church has judged what was grave…sometimes knowing directly from Divine Revelation…sometimes from reasoning about revelation. Theologians assist the Magisterium in this.

In some areas there can be yet a debate thing without the Church judging yet per se…so one has to look to the reasons etc of theologians who are faithful to the Church and make a judgment…for example in all sorts of new medical procedures…some of which are debated as of yet…(but these are not the things found in the Catechism)

As to a persons personal guilt…this needs to be taken case by case…often with a good confessor.

but it is the same for each person --what mortal sin is— when one has grave matter with full knowledge and complete (deliberate) consent.

In the cases you describe …it is possible for a person not to have those three aspects…not have the freedom due to a compulsion etc…

note what the Catechism says about one of the things you mentioned:

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm#II
 
It almost seems that those who are not Catholic have a greater chance of getting to Heaven since they are “incapable of committing mortal sin.”

This seems so depressing 😦
 
It almost seems that those who are not Catholic have a greater chance of getting to Heaven since they are “incapable of committing mortal sin.”

This seems so depressing 😦
Greater chance of getting to heaven? Don’t you believe it.

We Catholics may be more conscious of our sins, but at the same time we have the incalculable advantages of having Confession available when we become aware of them, and the Eucharist to help us avoid sin.

Don’t underestimate the power of the sacraments.
 
Greater chance of getting to heaven? Don’t you believe it.

We Catholics may be more conscious of our sins, but at the same time we have the incalculable advantages of having Confession available when we become aware of them, and the Eucharist to help us avoid sin.

Don’t underestimate the power of the sacraments.
Sorry, that was a terrible way of phrasing what I was trying to say. Of course there is no Salvation outside the Church, and if someone outright rejects the Catholic Church… that’s for another thread.
 
Mens Rea.

Surely this is*** the ***test for having sinned?
Exactly. What sort of sick sadistic Father would punish a child for doing something that they didn’t know, and couldn’t reasonably have known, was wrong?

Say my three-year-old niece kicks me in the shin. Does it hurt whether she knows it’s wrong or not? You betcha. Do I punish her if she didn’t know? Of course not, even though it hurt me just the same. I teach her that it hurts, but I don’t punish unless she already knows and does it anyway.

Intent and knowledge are everything.
 
Some comments by earlier posters about how sad it seems to be that the ignorant are somehow lucky to be able to get away with committing objectively mortal sins amuse me to no end. It reminds me of years ago when my fellow Catholic School guys and I thought how good the “publikers” (kids in the Public School) had it because they could make out, talk dirty, look at dirty pictures, masturbate etc. with no qualms or need to seek Confession. Today I recognize it as a situation wherin we had not yet grown to the point where we recognized the ugliness of sin and still found it very attractive. Can’t say that at age 74 and counting that I still don’t always find certain sins unattractive. 🙂
 
Sorry, but I think that’s ridiculous! If that’s really true, then that confirms my nagging feeling that I wish I was born somewhere/something else besides Catholic. How is that right where people ignorant can masturbate and not have to sit through Church while I have to? How does that make ANY sense at all!?
I agree! It’s basically like saying those who go to church, pray, do good deeds, etc. is pointless. Mine as well be ignorant and choose not to know what is a sin.
 
I agree! It’s basically like saying those who go to church, pray, do good deeds, etc. is pointless. Mine as well be ignorant and choose not to know what is a sin.
If one is ignorant, truly ignorant, then no choice is possible.
 
If it’s true that not knowing if something is a mortal sin, than basically most everyone would go to Heaven.? ! Also,what if someone knows something is a sin, but not mortal …would it still be considered mortal or no?
 
If it’s true that not knowing if something is a mortal sin, than basically most everyone would go to Heaven.? ! Also,what if someone knows something is a sin, but not mortal …would it still be considered mortal or no?
Not true. Lots of people know what is wrong and do it anyway.

Our jails are full of people who knew that what they were doing was wrong (in the sense of being illegal) at the time they were doing it - it was just that other things, like greed, peer pressure, jealousy or whatnot, were stronger influences upon them than the desire to do what they knew to be right. 🤷
 
If it’s true that not knowing if something is a mortal sin, than basically most everyone would go to Heaven.?
And as to the salvation question…we are saved by Jesus Christ…we are saved by Faith and Baptism etc…

even though it is possible for those who do know know Him and his Church etc…to be saved by Him ….if they are saved they are saved by Jesus Christ…even in a way we may not understand or see…

it is possible for them to be saved…but this is not the ordinary way…we must proclaim Christ!
 
And if one chooses not to know, then that’s not the sort of invincible ignorance that may save you.
True!

Indeed, choosing not to know is actually making a choice to avoid the truth, whatever it may be.
 
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