Mortal sin and salvation - hypotheticals

[pghguy]

OK, please leave your thoughts.

1. • A man dies a martyr for the faith, which we are taught results in entry to heaven. However, at the time of his death he had been in a state of mortal sin, which I understand results in damnation. So, what’s what?
2. • A woman is on her way to church to confess a mortal sin but is hit by a vehicle walking down the street and killed instantly. What about her?
3. • A person follows the instructions given by Mary regarding the First Saturdays promises in which it states she will project them from the fires of Hell. This person then dies without having confessed a mortal sin. What about them?

 

[Bookcat]

OK, please leave your thoughts.

1. • A man dies a martyr for the faith, which we are taught results in entry to heaven. However, at the time of his death he had been in a state of mortal sin, which I understand results in damnation. So, what’s what?

In such a situation one does not need per se confession for their dying for love of God above all things…even life itself would be a good sign of perfect contrition…the reality of martyrdom can purify quite quickly any temporal effects…and thus right to heaven with them (that is if they are really dying as a martyr for love of Christ)

1. • A woman is on her way to church to confess a mortal sin but is hit by a vehicle walking down the street and killed instantly. What about her?

If she has the grace of perfect contrition her sins where already forgiven…(though had she lived she would need to confess them) or if not already… it is possible for God in his mercy to give her this grace even in the last moment…Jesus is the Good Shepherd…he has his ways…let seek to always follow him …and hold fast to him in hope.

1. • A person follows the instructions given by Mary regarding the First Saturdays promises in which it states she will project them from the fires of Hell. This person then dies without having confessed a mortal sin. What about them?

One may hold that Mary …by her prayers and special intercession the person will not die in such a state but will have the grace of perfect Contrition…

Perfect Contrition:

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51

(note thought that venial sins can be forgiven in other ways too…)

A great reflection while we are on the subject of martyrdom:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20100811_en.html

 

[pghguy]

OK, please leave your thoughts.

1. • A man dies a martyr for the faith, which we are taught results in entry to heaven. However, at the time of his death he had been in a state of mortal sin, which I understand results in damnation. So, what’s what?

In such a situation one does not need per se confession for their dying for love of God above all things…even life itself would be a good sign of perfect contrition…the reality of martyrdom can purify quite quickly any temporal effects…and thus right to heaven with them (that is if they are really dying as a martyr for love of Christ)

1. • A woman is on her way to church to confess a mortal sin but is hit by a vehicle walking down the street and killed instantly. What about her?

If she has the grace of perfect contrition her sins where already forgiven…(though had she lived she would need to confess them) or if not already… it is possible for God in his mercy to give her this grace even in the last moment…Jesus is the Good Shepherd…he has his ways…let seek to always follow him …and hold fast to him in hope.

1. • A person follows the instructions given by Mary regarding the First Saturdays promises in which it states she will project them from the fires of Hell. This person then dies without having confessed a mortal sin. What about them?

One may hold that Mary …by her prayers and special intercession the person will not die in such a state but will have the grace of perfect Contrition…

Perfect Contrition:

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51

(note thought that venial sins can be forgiven in other ways too…)

A great reflection while we are on the subject of martyrdom:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20100811_en.html

Thanks for the reply. Interesting that only one person of this site had any clue on this though. I guess it goes to show we have a lot we are yet to understand or can even comprehend.

 

[Bookcat]

Thanks for the reply. Interesting that only one person of this site had any clue on this though. I guess it goes to show we have a lot we are yet to understand or can even comprehend.

Or perhaps they are away on vacation (I just got back …) There are lots here who would normally have commented…

But your welcome.

 

[ab75]

Or perhaps they are away on vacation (I just got back …) There are lots here who would normally have commented…

But your welcome.

These questions are the unfortunate conclusion when we allow ourself to view the Church as the legalistic governing body of a strict God of punishment, which is unfortunately easy to do. It’s amazing the difference when we view the Church as the vehicle to recieve the grace of an God of unlimited mercy. Our ritualistic sacraments can be the biggest blessing possible if we are in the right place, or almost a curse that leads to legalism if we are not able to fully discern at that time.

 

[Bookcat]

These questions are the unfortunate conclusion when we allow ourself to view the Church as the legalistic governing body of a strict God of punishment, which is unfortunately easy to do. It’s amazing the difference when we view the Church as the vehicle to recieve the grace of an God of unlimited mercy. Our ritualistic sacraments can be the biggest blessing possible if we are in the right place, or almost a curse that leads to legalism if we are not able to fully discern at that time.

Of course having laws and have Sacraments are not legalism (I know you were not saying such)…but it is important to realize while we are not to “presume” on things…

God can work things out…in ways outside observers do not see…

Yes you are correct the Church is not a “legalistic body of a God of punishment” but the Body of Christ…who seeks us out as the Good Shepherd…

And yes the gifts of the Sacraments are wonderful! And even though we are to take these avenues that God has given us… God is not “bound by the Sacraments” he can in ways unknown to us…seek us out with his loving grace in that last moment etc…

 

[pghguy]

These questions are the unfortunate conclusion when we allow ourself to view the Church as the legalistic governing body of a strict God of punishment, which is unfortunately easy to do. It’s amazing the difference when we view the Church as the vehicle to recieve the grace of an God of unlimited mercy. Our ritualistic sacraments can be the biggest blessing possible if we are in the right place, or almost a curse that leads to legalism if we are not able to fully discern at that time.

This just doens’t makes sense to me but perhaps it isn’t supposed to. Sadly, that is how things usually come across in Catholicism, as a stringent set of rules with little or no room for error or expereincing life.

 

[ab75]

This just doens’t makes sense to me but perhaps it isn’t supposed to. Sadly, that is how things usually come across in Catholicism, as a stringent set of rules with little or no room for error or expereincing life.

My point of view is this

1. God loves us unconditionally.
2. God desires us to be in communion with him, now and forever. He promises in doing this we will have an abundant life in this world (and the next).
3. God understands that is difficult, and we will mess up … if it wasn’t the case he would not have needed to take on flesh, suffer and die for his sake. He was willing to give his life for us, and we need total childlike trust in God that his sacrafice will cleanse us completely. We need childlike trust that if we lean on him, he will show us the way in this life to fulfillment as well.
4. God runs out to meet us (like the Prodigal Son), when we turn toward him … and Jesus meets us where we are and helps us grow in relationship and faith with him.
5. Knowing how difficult it could be, God GAVE US VISABLE MEANS TO HIS GRACE for our benefit. Reconciliation is a gift to help ensure us we are right with God, and have advisors moving us there, it is not designed as a rule where if something happens before the next confession (which we desire to go to), we are out of luck and God is looking to “catch us”. The Eucharist is a grace to realize how much God loves us and wants to dwell in us … and connect us to all other believers.
6. This is just my opinion, but God does not want us to bury our talents in fear. For many, God doesn’t (primarily) desire sacrafice, but mercy. The advisary is trying to convince us with fear, play on fears, say it’s too hard, that God doesn’t want you to have things you enjoy, etc. We will realize we are happiest when the things we enjoy are in the proper place (behind God), and when we realize some of our passions may be controlling us for the worse. In my opinion (and I may be wrong), it is more pleasing to for God someone to try to participate fully in life to the best of their ability, loving and SERVING their neighbor (and enemies) to the fullest, that may make a few mistakes along the way and learns from them, than to sit in fear.
7. God doesn’t desire you do this alone. Yes some friends may not be in the same place with their walk (but that doesn’t mean they wont get there), and some may be oposed to it, but God WILL bring people in your life to trust.
8. Spend time with your brother and family, talk to religous as often as you can, and find ways to get involved in Church/mission activities (face to face).

My point is, the Church can be seen as a source of the Grace of a God of unconditional love. Tools he gives you to help live in an imperfect world, for your benefit because it’s not easy. However, for far too many it is seen as rules they must follow, and boxes they must check to get to heaven. This can easily lead to a position of judgment on others, and trust in rules and ourself following them, rather than trust in the sacrafice of God.

Remember, the humble sinner that beats his chest leaves more justified than the person following the rules that is thankful they don’t “sin like the rest”. Remember Jesus spent most of his time with sinners and prostitutes, trying to save them, and withheld his harshest words for religous leaders. Remember Christ died for YOU, individually, he knew YOU … and it’s this gift why you can go to heaven, not your own doing. You are asked to trust him and listen to him and work in cooperation with him. Some of our best Saints failed in trial and error after they had a conversion moment (like you are going through). Pray for the spirit, and don’t expect immediate perfection.

It’s about God and his Grace. I know this is difficult, I’ve been in your situation before and I encourage you to find a good Priest (perhaps even a couple), and discuss it often. Pray often for God to give you his spirit of guidance, and trust him to bring the right PEOPLE into your life to help. Stay off here, or at least out of “is this a sin” threads, there are a lot of opinions and a lot of different situations, and in your state, you are always going to believe the strictest (whether it’s correct or not). Talk to a Priest who knows your situation. There have been many heresies by the extreme conservative just as there have been by the extreme liberal … just because something is the most conservative, doesn’t necessarily mean its correct or orthodox.

 

[Bookcat]

Sadly, that is how things usually come across in Catholicism, as a stringent set of rules with little or no room for error or expereincing life.

But such is not the case…it is “real life!”

joy…hope…charity…

In Christ…! (Soooo glad I entered into full communion with the Church!)

One has to ‘change ones glasses’…especially if they have lots of scruple spots on them

 

[Bookcat]

Dear friends, truth is not an imposition. Nor is it simply a set of rules. It is a discovery of the One who never fails us; the One whom we can always trust. In seeking truth we come to live by belief because ultimately truth is a person: Jesus Christ. That is why authentic freedom is not an opting out. It is an opting in; nothing less than letting go of self and allowing oneself to be drawn into Christ’s very being for others (cf. Spe Salvi, 28)…

…At times, however, we are tempted to close in on ourselves, to doubt the strength of Christ’s radiance, to limit the horizon of hope. Take courage! Fix your gaze on our saints. The diversity of their experience of God’s presence prompts us to discover anew the breadth and depth of Christianity. Let your imaginations soar freely along the limitless expanse of the horizons of Christian discipleship. Sometimes we are looked upon as people who speak only of prohibitions. Nothing could be further from the truth! Authentic Christian discipleship is marked by a sense of wonder. We stand before the God we know and love as a friend, the vastness of his creation, and the beauty of our Christian faith.

–Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2008/april/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20080419_st-joseph-seminary_en.html