Mortal sin, death, repentance and salvation

[Robert1111]

What i believe and what the saints i quoted believe is that can use that “ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God” in order to bring these persons to repentance.

What i believe and what the saints i quoted believe is that GOD can use that “ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God” in order to bring these persons to repentance.

Of course if someone doesn’t even have that ultimate smoldering of love and openness to God’s Grace, he is beyond saving, and i actually think that this kind of people exist and this is why i cannot, unfortunately, be a universalist.

But i also don’t believe that that kind of diabolical aversion is THAT common. I’m not saying that you have to be a Hitler or a Judas to be that unrepentant either, i’m just saying that i don’t see your average Joe out here being like that, that’s all.

And one more thing about this point

. I believe there are a great number of souls in Hell at this very moment who still refuse to “understand” what sin really is. After all they were both consenting so what’s the harm right?

I disagree with this. In Hell there are no weak sinners who don’t understand what sin really is. If anything, who goes to Hell is exactly someone who understands really well what sin really is, as Padre Pio said, and still refuses to repent until the end. Just like Lucifer and the other fallen angels when they rebelled against God.

 

[Latin]

Please think about:

We have a 3 years old child. According to our duty of care:

We are responsible to bring up our child to be a loving responsible grown up person, according to the best of our abilities.

We must govern/ control our child with love and care according to the best of our abilities.

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We are God’s little children and always will be. According to God’s duty of care:

The same principle applies to God, as we are His children and we will always stay His little children, God’s duty of care is to bring us up to be loving responsible grown up person and to provide us everlasting happiness in Him according to His best abilities.

Furthermore, according to the best of His abilities, He must govern/ control, love, save us and to take us home to heaven.

.
As we have the duty of care to govern/ control our children with love, God has the duty of care to govern/ control and to save us with love.

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According to Thomism – Reprobation = God is perfectly able to fulfil His duty of care to govern/ control and save all of us with love.

But, Can God fulfil His duty of care to govern/ control and save all of us with love in Molinism?
.
God bless

 

[Robert1111]

According to Thomism – Reprobation = God is perfectly able to fulfil His duty of care to govern/ control and save all of us with love.

Yes, according to thomism, God is perfectly able to fulfil His duty of care to govern/ control and save all of us with love. And yet he chooses not not and simply reprobates some of us even before having foreseen our demerits, simply because he doesn’t wish us (if we happen to be among the reprobates) the particular good of eternal life.

You are a universalist because you realized that you couldn’t believe in a loving God if both sufficient/efficacious Grace (as intended by the thomists, that is, sufficient Grace that absolutely needs God’s further intervention to otherwise we are doomed and intrinsically efficacious Grace) and reprobation were true.

But, Can God fulfil His duty of care to govern/ control and save all of us with love in Molinism?

I’m not strictly molinist either but yeah, in a different system God leaves us more freedom, even if it means that the bad use of said freedom can possibly result in eternal damnation.

But at least in this system we don’t go to Hell because God didn’t wish our salvation. In this system, if we go to Hell, we go to Hell because WE didn’t want God’s gift, but God himself desired our salvation in the same way he desired the salvation of the elect. In this system, if we are not numbered among the elect, it’s just because we chose not not, not because God simply passed us over and didn’t predestine us to salvation.

In this system God gives us every grace we need at every point of life to return to him, if we die in final impenitence it’s because we didn’t want to accept God, not simply because “s**t happens”. To answer your question yeah, i think that in this system God is both powerful and loving, and this doesn’t change simply because he doesn’t force us to be saved, because he gave us what we needed (what we TRULY needed, not the ridiculous thomistic “”””””sufficient””””” Grace whose only purpose is making us accountable for our sins) to achieve eternal happiness
So yeah, the only acceptable perspectives to me are either a form of thomistic universalism or some other system where reprobation exists but it is strictly post foreseen demerits. I’m not a universalist (but God knows how much i desire to be proven wrong) so i’ll go with the latter system.

But classical thomism and augustinianism is just a pure abomination to me.

You yourself identified the glaring weakness in classical thomism that makes its outlook on predestination a pure abomination and an insult to God

The weakness in Thomism; God is responsible for those who are goes to hell because He did not predestined them to heaven. – God provides the right (efficacious) grace, but provides it only for some to
His elect and the rest is doomed.

And that’s exactly the point.

 

[TULIPed]

Literally everyone draws a line in the sand

Not everyone:

“Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.”

Even the cute koalas drowned.

(He predestined the flood, no?)

 

[MT1926]

I think that you misunderstood what Padre Pio said. Padre Pio was far from being a universalist. He said “not a great number of soul” he didn’t say “nobody”.

No I didn’t think he was being a universalist I just said I don’t really agree with his opinion. There’s nothing wrong with that.

When he said “how could we fail to repent” he was just saying that unless someone is really corrupted he will probably accept God’s gift, open his heart and let God guide him to true repentance.

He never said unless someone is really corrupt. You are adding that so you can personally judge who is corrupt and who isn’t. That is why I keep stress that only God knows the heart. Only he can judge who is and who isn’t corrupt.

Here’s the rub if you want to take Padre Pio’s words to the full extent then you have to be willing to apply this to the serial murderer on the same level as the kid who slept with your daughter.

This means you have to willing accept the fact that God could also let a serial murder, who hasn’t repented in this life, but…

God, before He judges the serial murderer, will give him a chance to see and understand what sin really is. And The serial murder would understand it properly and repent to enter Heaven.

While at the same time the boy who slept with your daughter might not understand it properly and end up in Hell.

Placing so much emphasis on Padre Pios words just brings you right back to the conundrum that started this thread, doesn’t it?

God Bless

 

[Robert1111]

He never said unless someone is really corrupt. You are adding that so you can personally judge who is corrupt and who isn’t. That is why I keep stress that only God knows the heart. Only he can judge who is and who isn’t corrupt.

Here’s the rub if you want to take Padre Pio’s words to the full extent then you have to be willing to apply this to the serial murderer on the same level as the kid who slept with your daughter.

This means you have to willing accept the fact that God could also let a serial murder, who hasn’t repented in this life, but…

My point was that i don’t think that those cases are that common, that’s all.

 

[Robert1111]

While at the same time the boy who slept with your daughter might not understand it properly and end up in Hell.

I think that his words meant to say that everyone will be given the chance to understand his sin and repent of it. Those who go to Hell are those who willfully choose to not repent despite having understood the gravity of their sins.

 

[Robert1111]

Here’s the rub if you want to take Padre Pio’s words to the full extent then you have to be willing to apply this to the serial murderer on the same level as the kid who slept with your daughter.

This means you have to willing accept the fact that God could also let a serial murder, who hasn’t repented in this life, but…

I have no problem with it. Purgatory is there even for serial murderers. So yeah, i’m willing to apply this to the serial murderer on the exact same level.

 

[Robert1111]

@MT1926

I don’t know what made you think that i wasn’t willing to see that applied to the vilest of sinner. Maybe i haven’t been clear enough in my previous posts (just like when you thought that i wasn’t willing to accept some teachings of the Church, then you admitted that you were wrong, so maybe there is some defect on my part when it comes to outlining my thoughts) but i can’t see reconcile Hell with a loving God and his universal salvific will unless it is really the last resort, reserved only for those who truly are past saving.

So yeah, i have no problem with that, like i said. It’s not like i want a common sinner to have a last chance and a mass murderer to be thrown into Hell on a moment’s notice. He can be saved too, even if his Purgatory would be much more painful.

 

[MT1926]

I don’t know what made you think that i wasn’t willing to see that applied to the vilest of sinner.

Let me try again. My point wasn’t that you weren’t willing to see this applied to the vilest of sinners my point was your original post said…

Well, the problem, my dear friends, is that Rudolf Höss repented because he HAD TIME to repent.

So according to Padre Pio’s statement he has taken care of the “TIME” issues, I’m good with that because as I already said in the beginning my opinion is the “TIME” issue is a moot point because God knows if repentance is in the heart.

I was just trying to point out that even taking care of the time issue it’s still possible that the murderer might still end up in heaven and the kid still might end up in hell.

It just seems to me you that the main issue you are having is with…

but i can’t see reconcile Hell with a loving God and his universal salvific will unless it is really the last resort, reserved only for those who truly are past saving.

I don’t mean to be judgmental here, like you said maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but to be quite honest when I read this statement it comes across as you saying you can’t see God being all loving when he disagrees with you, on who you believe, is and who isn’t “past saving”.

I apologize if I am misunderstanding but to me I can’t see where the issue lies unless you know for a fact “who truly are past saving.”

God Bless