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Agripa
Guest
Even the mighty RC allows annulments for such refusals.
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Methodi
Guest
Yeh, divorce
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Agripa
Guest
No, annullment - divorce is a seperate thing. One of the grounds to gain an annullment, one serious thing considered by the Roman Catholic Church as a grounds for annullment is the refusal of one spouse to conjoin in the blissful act with the other. In fact, if the annullment is granted, it is as if there never was a marriage at all, which in my humble opinion, a marraige without sex - aint marriage, its simply having a roommate! :dts:
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baylee
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According to the CCC, it is eunuch OR marriage…not both at the same time.12For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs(A) for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."
I guess I have become a eunuch.
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Methodi
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annullment, divorce, same thingNo, annullment - divorce is a seperate thing. One of the grounds to gain an annullment, one serious thing considered by the Roman Catholic Church as a grounds for annullment is the refusal of one spouse to conjoin in the blissful act with the other. In fact, if the annullment is granted, it is as if there never was a marriage at all, which in my humble opinion, a marraige without sex - aint marriage, its simply having a roommate! :dts:
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baylee
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Agripa
Guest
No, it is not. Divorce is clearly the legal dissolution (civil) of what was previously a marrital union. An annullment is the official recognition by either a civil, or in this case, an ecclesiastical authority, that there are grounds to support an arguement that there was not a valid marriage by reason of some recognized defect, impossibility, fraud, etc. Those are two seperate things.
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Methodi
Guest
Thats ****, how was it not a valid marriage, marriage is a sacrament when performed by a priest in The catholic church, how is it not valid. Yrs ago, people lived in absolutely horrific conditions, because divorce was not an option, thery suffered for better or for worse, nowadays people are seeking annullments for any little thing, after being married 30 -40 yrs, **** I say
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Agripa
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Whoa!!! I am not just pulling this out of my . . . . . . thin air! Annullment is a process sanctioned by the Church! Every archdiocese (at least as far as I am aware) has a Tribunal which convenes on necessary occasions to review applications for annulment. You may disagree with the frequency by which these are issued, but you cannot say correctly divorce and annullment are the same thing.
I hardly think annullments are granted for “every little thing” and gone are the days (hopefully) where a woman, black and blue from her husband’s fists, needs to hear some priest say to her “for every Easter, dear child, we must face our Good Fridays”. Puh- lease!!!
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Methodi
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Yeh, Thats what I say, Puh-lease
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Verbum_Caro
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Methodi,
I don’t quite understand. I thought you were in favor of masturbation. (Please forgive me if I misapprehended! No offense intended!)
If so, I question the principles which inform your conclusions, including the one above (regardless if I agree or disagree with it).
VC
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Agripa
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So in your opinion, are there ever grounds for an annullment? (Aside from the original point of this thread which included some discussions on one spouse refusing conjugal relations with the other.)
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baylee
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Thank you for the charitable response.
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Methodi
Guest
maybe there are a few reasons for an annullment, but over 50% of marriages fail, even catholic marriages, these couples dont even try to make it work, they run for an annullment right away, what happened to what God has joined together let no man put asunder, yrs ago if a catholic divorced, maybe for a good reason & if they remarried they were excommunicated, how sad, I knew some such people & they hurt very badly over being excommunicated
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Agripa
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Thats generally right, but did God merely join at the alter, or was God to be instrumental in the courtship and relationship that developed leading up to the alter?
If God was not there, if the motives for the marriage were simly pride, lust, or fear, or some ungodly motive, how is it that God suddenly joined at the alter?
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Methodi
Guest
Well then we can say that at most catholic marriages, God was not there , very very silly. Most catholics cohabitate & have sex before marriage, where was God in any of them then. I guess he wasnt present at any of them, how sillyThats generally right, but did God merely join at the alter, or was God to be instrumental in the courtship and relationship that developed leading up to the alter?
If God was not there, if the motives for the marriage were simly pride, lust, or fear, or some ungodly motive, how is it that God suddenly joined at the alter?
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LovesTheFather
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mrpathetic…I can tell you are a good man who is very divouted to his wife and his vows…and yes this is a “for better or worse” situation and you are dealing with worse right now…obviously…
Once your wife comes back to Jesus and starts to feel his love…he will poor his love through her and she will share her love with you…
I truly believe in the power of prayer and I have true evidence that it works in my life…and I know that if you keep praying for your wife and showing her the love of a good Christian husband she will come back one day and will see that she does enjoy love making with her husband…it sounds like she is in a really big slump and who wouldn’t be without God in there lives…
She had a tragic thing happen to her in her life…cancer…and then had to get a hysterectomy…that is very sad…maybe this has caused her depression…What your wife needs is prayer and love…she needs to get back to God and I know you already know this…I would say keep hanging in there…Jesus loves her and wants you BOTH to be happily married…
If you were my husband writing these words down on a email thread to strangers it would crush my heart…but that is because I know God and love him and know what my responsibilities are to my husband…
I don’t know her but I will pray for her…God will know who I am praying for…
I understand how for her she probably doesn’t get sexual urges because all that which causes those hormones are now nolonger there…but that doesn’t mean she can’t enjoy the unity…the lovemaking with you…the spiritual aspect of that…and it WILL happen again…as asoon as she loves herself through Jesus again…
EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE FOR GOD:thumbsup:
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BiologyBrain
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I realize that Catholic marriages fail as well, but the statistic is usually much less than 50% of them b/c of the discernment process one must go through b/4 Catholic marriage.
The reasons for annulment have to be present when the marriage began. Refusing sex years into the marriage (unless it was pre-planned, which this wasn’t) isn’t a reason for annulment. However, if one enters into marriage falsely (vowing to attempt to have children, convert, raise Catholic children, etc) then there are ground for annulment. If years into the marriage one spouse begins abusing the other, that’s not really grounds for annulment. That’s reason for counseling and even separation. However, the marriage itself - the vows made before God - remain valid. However, if the abuse (or cheating) began prior to the marriage, that is grounds for an annulment. There has to be a reason present at the time of the marriage for that marriage to be eligible for annulment.
I think perhaps it would be better to say that Pre-Cana counseling in that parish/your experience was terrible. There are countless wonderful examples of Pre-Cana counselling in all faiths in different parishes and different people’s experiences. My Pre-Cana was one-on-one w/ a priest (the one that married us) and I enjoyed it thoroughly.
No one could know that in advance. Your wife didn’t know then that she’d have cancer & have to have a hysterectomy. She also most likely didn’t wake up after her hysterectomy & know instantly that she would never want to have sex again. Its not like she planned it. She’s probably suffering from depression and a whole host of other things that are causing this to happen. Don’t forget, its not just happening to you - its happening to her as well. She doesn’t feel like a whole person any longer perhaps. Granted that’s not your fault, but its not really hers either.
If I were in your wife’s position (w/ as much information as I can glean from your comments), I’d be in desparate need for your prayes, thoughts, consideration, and support. She’s quite possibly confused, depressed, overwhelmed and countless other less identifiable emotions. It sounds as if you’re trying your best, but you might be looking at this as her acting against you. Instead its her feelings affecting you as they affect her. She’s not necessarily seeing how its affecting you, she’s blinded by her own suffering. Perhaps her suffering is intense enough that she can’t see past it to you. That’s where you can help and perhaps the solution will resolve itself. Continue to be supporting, caring, compassionate, and patient with her. Continue praying for her & your relationship. Be a good example of being open to God’s love through her for her to realize it can be ok.
You both have my prayers & thoughts.
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mrpathetic
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Actually, there was nearly a decade of sexlessness before the hysterectomy. She effectively cut sex off, after the last of our children was born. She really wasn’t that interested in sex, from that point forward. So she probably would still be denying me sex, even if she still had her complete set of sex organs. (Of course, this is conjecture; I’ll never really know the answer to that question.)
The problem really does come down to selfishness, and denial of self. My wife, in all honesty, is quite selfish. That is her major personality flaw.
I have tried to practice denial of self, to try to bring her back into the Christian fold. I am trying to set the example of Christian humility and charity for her, but it just isn’t working.
I get conflicting advice all the time. Some folks tell I need to tougher with her, e.g. take a more aggressive, demanding approach. Some tell me to be more supporting, e.g., take a more passive, compassionate approach. I have tried numerous variations of both, and neither has worked. Maybe nothing will ever work.
Really, I have consigned myself to the likelihood, that I will never have sex again - barring some miraculous change in my wife’s outlook. And quite frankly, I don’t see that happening. Jesus has more important things to take care of.
The problem really does come down to selfishness, and denial of self. My wife, in all honesty, is quite selfish. That is her major personality flaw.
I have tried to practice denial of self, to try to bring her back into the Christian fold. I am trying to set the example of Christian humility and charity for her, but it just isn’t working.
I get conflicting advice all the time. Some folks tell I need to tougher with her, e.g. take a more aggressive, demanding approach. Some tell me to be more supporting, e.g., take a more passive, compassionate approach. I have tried numerous variations of both, and neither has worked. Maybe nothing will ever work.
Really, I have consigned myself to the likelihood, that I will never have sex again - barring some miraculous change in my wife’s outlook. And quite frankly, I don’t see that happening. Jesus has more important things to take care of.
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LovesTheFather
Guest
Interesting…
Does your wife want to be in this marriage?..because it sounds like she could care less…
The CCC says that separation is allowed if for a good reason…
I don’t know how old your children are but the relationship between their parents is very important…children would rather be from a separated home than a toxic one…
Maybe if you do separate it will help her to realize all you do…and learn to appreciate her husband…and treat you like a husband rather than a rock that she can just kick aside…
I am sure you have tried everything…except seperation…now is the time…this is the last straw I think…and if separation doesn’t clue her into how much you should mean to her…then…I would stay separated…I mean that is the most healthy choice…for the both of you…
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