Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

[TLM08]

Does anyone remeber Onan? Genesis 38. 9-10
(Note: While I’m no historian, I believe the punishment at that time for not giving a deceased brother’s wife children was public humiliation. The death Onan was sentenced to was for contraception, including coitus withdrawl.)

In Him,
Mira

Onan’s punishment was about *a lot *more than just sperm on the ground. The Old Testament has some really mind numbing stuff in it regarding sex.

Dig this:

*If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her *and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver.He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Jesus didn’t say one word about Onan. A topic so important would certainly be touched upon during his ministry. Or maybe it should have even been mentioned in the Ten Commandments!

 

[Sair]

First of all, I don’t know what they would say about an infertile couple. Using their reasoning, I would guess they’d object to it. But I don’t know what they teach. I’ve only gathered what I know from the direction I have gotten from them over the years. I haven’t received direction from them in probably 4 or 5 years now. In fact, one of the last times I went there was when I was told we had to abstain during my pregnancy. Here I was pregnant and being told we would not be being open to life by having sex while I couldn’t possible get pregnant (b/c I already was pregnant!).

Another of their teachings was to be temperant during climax (whatever that means) - iow, don’t enjoy it too much (?). I can’t remember exactly how that was worded, but the way he explained it was basically that it is best to exercise self-control in the midst of the pleasure so it is not enjoyed for the sensory experience. Kind of akin to trying not to enjoy the taste of the foods we eat as we’re eating them I guess…

An interesting thing is that my mother yesterday told me that the CC used to allow an annulment if one of the couple couldn’t conceive. It sounds to me like this possibly is based on an old teaching that procreation is a must in marriage (?). I really don’t know.

Blimey. Sounds like all this could be summed up in a single instruction - “Thou shalt not enjoy thyself.” No wonder people have negative perceptions of the Catholic church when this is the kind of killjoy teaching that filters out into the community.

And here’s another thing I’m finding increasingly troublesome. This notion that marriage must be, first and foremost, for the procreation of children. The Church can say as much as it wants that sex has a unitive purpose as well as the procreative purpose, but one can’t help getting the impression, from church teaching and from history, that the unitive thing is completely secondary - as long as the couple are doing their duty and popping out children, the unitive aspect can pretty much fall by the wayside.

Secondly, what constitutes a ‘grave’ reason for deciding not to conceive? Does the Church define any criteria for these decisions? I have to say that I am firmly of the opinion that not wanting children - and I don’t mean just from an aesthetic point of view, but a deep, lasting lack of desire for children - constitutes a pretty good reason for not having them. An honest analysis of one’s personality and one’s long-term life goals might reveal an incompatibility with the role of parenthood. And let’s not even begin to consider the environmental impact of all those children who would result if the sex act between married couples was always left open to procreation. Don’t ethical considerations constitute grave reasons? I think it’s wrong to assume that any person who refuses parenthood does so for selfish, materialistic reasons. You only have to look at the world around you to realise that there are people out there who were just not suited for parenthood, but responded to either religious or social pressures and had children anyway - thus proliferating the amount of suffering and misery in the world.

And must a person who doesn’t feel called to parenthood then cut themselves off from the intimate companionship of marriage?

 

[Jennifer_J]

Onan’s punishment was about *a lot *more than just sperm on the ground. The Old Testament has some really mind numbing stuff in it regarding sex.

Dig this:

*If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her *and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver.He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Jesus didn’t say one word about Onan. A topic so important would certainly be touched upon during his ministry. Or maybe it should have even been mentioned in the Ten Commandments!

It is covered under the 10 commandments:
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not covet your neighbors wife

If you look at the Catechism at all, then you will know the section 2 is divided up by the 10 commandments and those things relating to those sections are covered under them.
scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm

Also, if you look over the Didache, which is supposed to be the earliest Christian document we have, it clearly lists out adultery, fornication, abortion, potions/magic (usually seen as contraception) and lust as things to NOT do…
earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

Jesus never spoke about many things that may specifically be sinful. However, we do have the teachings of the Church based on the teachings of Jesus. Yeah, I know, you don’t buy that, but we do. “What is bound on earth will be bound in heaven” (read that whole section, it’s good: matt 16:13-19)

 

[rotlex]

Onan’s punishment was about *a lot *more than just sperm on the ground. The Old Testament has some really mind numbing stuff in it regarding sex.

Dig this:

*If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her *and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver.He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Jesus didn’t say one word about Onan. A topic so important would certainly be touched upon during his ministry. Or maybe it should have even been mentioned in the Ten Commandments!

You know, this is something I have always pondered whenever this subject comes up. I am NOT against Church teachings etc., but, as I have stated previously, I struggle with certain teachings regarding sex. (Especially between married couples).

The Onan story is ALWAYS mentioned when someone mentions withdrawal etc. I find this funny, not in a laughing way, as it appears to me that certain people, including the Church, pick and choose what they want to “obey” from the OT. As you state above, Jesus does not mention this at all.

In a nutshell, why does this ONE story stick out, when other old “laws”, food, rituals etc. etc. no longer need to be followed?

 

[fix]

Jesus never spoke about many things that may specifically be sinful. However, we do have the teachings of the Church based on the teachings of Jesus. Yeah, I know, you don’t buy that, but we do. “What is bound on earth will be bound in heaven” (read that whole section, it’s good: matt 16:13-19)

This issue is not one about logic. The Church’s position is logical, just not accepted. It is an issue of authority.

 

[Jennifer_J]

You know, this is something I have always pondered whenever this subject comes up. I am NOT against Church teachings etc., but, as I have stated previously, I struggle with certain teachings regarding sex. (Especially between married couples).

The Onan story is ALWAYS mentioned when someone mentions withdrawal etc. I find this funny, not in a laughing way, as it appears to me that certain people, including the Church, pick and choose what they want to “obey” from the OT. As you state above, Jesus does not mention this at all.

In a nutshell, why does this ONE story stick out, when other old “laws”, food, rituals etc. etc. no longer need to be followed?

Because it teaches a fundamental truth. Onan was punished much harsher because of what he did. It would have been a non-story if he had just chosen to not fulfill the law. Dietary laws did not come forward, because they were not faith and morals. Circumcision did not come forward because Jesus perfected the sign by instituting baptism. There are many reasons that some OT teachings carry forward and many don’t.

And as Fix said, much of this comes down to accepting authority of the Catholic Church because it is the Church Christ founded…

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

Hi Pilgrim,
I’m in the process of joining the church, and the birth control issue has been a hard one for me, too. I just stopped taking the Pill (after 13 years) and am feeling much happier…I had no idea that the generally stressed and cranky feeling I felt every day might be connected until I became interested in the Church and started reading about the side effects. Somehow, those side effect issues never were discussed with the doctor when it was prescribed. So I just spent a good deal of my adult life being unhappy…and for what? Anyway, I’m now using NFP, with the help of this little computer ladycomp.com/ which is pretty nifty. Hearing this onemoresoul.com/ (see the audio, “Contraception: Why Not” in the upper left) made me rethink all of the reasons why I was contracepting.

It’s a hard decision to stop contracepting. Faith is not easy. You are in my prayers.

Thank you. Prayers are always appreciated.

Please know, btw, that I am not condoning the pill. I simply question if the rare supplementation of a condom for the sake of keeping the unitive aspects of marriage alive is sinful. I was on the pill many, many years ago. I know how horrible I felt on it. But most importantly, there is a small percentage of possible abortion b/c of the pill which is why I would never ever chose to go on it again. And I would probably benefit from some type of hormone treatment right now but I refuse b/c then we’d either have to abstain completely all the time or use condoms all the time - neither of which we would consider.

I took a quick peep at those links. That little computer has me puzzled. If sperm can live 96 hours, and you can’t reliably predict ovulation, then I don’t see what help this would be. We have NO PROBLEM knowing when ovulation occurs, once it is occuring that is. The problem is the period before ovulation is wasted b/c we don’t know when the ovulation will start. Unless this computer can anticipate when ovulation will occur in the future (which it can’t, I’m sure) it won’t be much help. Not to mention that it is over $600

 

[JC_in_Dallas]

IMHO, it sounds as if a lot of folks, including certain afore-mentioned Franciscans are stuck back in the 5th to whenever centuries with Augustin and the concept of the inherent sinful nature of the human sex act that was “allowed” only for procreation. Augustin had a bit of an over-reaction to his former life of sin and debauchery.
If one reads carefully in the Catechism starting with article 1601 and following in part 3 sections 4-6 and then moves on to the Papal letters starting with Humanae Vitae and following by JPII and Benedict XVI as well as other letters from the USCCB website and the committees on marriage one finds that a lot of the afore-mentioned postings is a bunch of whooey and personal interpretation and conjecture.
Now on to what I really think, beleive and teach; NFP is not the same as any unatural form of birth control. Even though it is much improved through recent science it is still open to conception and can be practiced at length. The subsidiary issue is if one or both of the spouses had a mental reservation or lied in marriage preparation about being open to children. That is a topic for another thread because it could be grounds for a decree of nullity.
Enjoying sexual relations within the marriage is a great blessing and comes under the intent of CCC 1601 “for the good of the couple”. It can be sanctifying and healing, as well as a lot of fun, for couples to share in an intimate way the intention of the Sacrament to give freely of each other to the good of the marriage and each other.
If one makes the attempt to become informed and therefore has a “well formed conscience” in these matters then the internal forum of the conscience prevails and only The Big Boss can stand in judgement.
Another tid bit to chew on, as one studies and teaches scripture and theology it may become easier to sin since one is more completely informed. On the other hand if one is not only guided by human intellect and is truly in life long discernment led by the Holy Sprit, one would not conceive of doing anything to seperate oneself from God in the smallest way.
Whew… I warned you I am Irish and it gets up once in a while when a lot of bad info is being bandied about.

 

[AngelaBarbara]

Thank you. Prayers are always appreciated.
I took a quick peep at those links. That little computer has me puzzled. If sperm can live 96 hours, and you can’t reliably predict ovulation, then I don’t see what help this would be. We have NO PROBLEM knowing when ovulation occurs, once it is occuring that is. The problem is the period before ovulation is wasted b/c we don’t know when the ovulation will start. Unless this computer can anticipate when ovulation will occur in the future (which it can’t, I’m sure) it won’t be much help. Not to mention that it is over $600

The computer has a learning period, where it says “red” (fertile) between your period and ovulation, because it is trying to learn your cycle. Once it learns your cycle, you get some “yellow” days between your period and ovulation. The site Q & A is helpful to learn about it.

I know its a little expensive, but you can find them on eBay. They also have on the site refurbished models which are a bit less expensive.

It’s just another option. This is a good book: amazon.com/Taking-Charge-Your-Fertility-Anniversary/dp/0060881909/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233353296&sr=8-1 if you want to learn more about NFP.

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

The computer has a learning period, where it says “red” (fertile) between your period and ovulation, because it is trying to learn your cycle. Once it learns your cycle, you get some “yellow” days between your period and ovulation. The site Q & A is helpful to learn about it.

I know its a little expensive, but you can find them on eBay. They also have on the site refurbished models which are a bit less expensive.

It’s just another option. This is a good book: amazon.com/Taking-Charge-Your-Fertility-Anniversary/dp/0060881909/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233353296&sr=8-1 if you want to learn more about NFP.

Thanks. I may look at the book. Like I said, we’ve used NFP for over 10 years - mostly exclusively. I could probably use a refresher course though.

 

[baylee]

And you don’t seem to understand that the INTENT of not wanting more children at a certain time is not sinful–the MEANS to that END can be sinful–contraception and abortion, for instance. However, NFP is not inherently sinful because the meaning of the act is kept intact–ordered to procreation and unitive and these 2 aspects are so intertwined that to try to separate them damages the sacramental nature of the act. Condoms are a physical barrier–they certainly alter the act. NFP is information about fertility, it does not alter any specific act. Each act is ordered to procreation and unitive, whether the woman is fertile or not.

Just so you know, I have never really questioned NFP because I do see a difference between it and artificial contraception. I do understand the idea that every conjugal act should be both procreative and unitive.

However, after reading through this thread, my question would be: what if God willed that couple to have a child during her unfertile times? By not engaging in sex at those times, isn’t the couple thwarting God’s Will as well? Doesn’t the couple presume that God will only want them to conceive during the fertile times? Just because the couple thinks it’s not a good time to have a child, how do they know that this is God’s Will?

 

[baylee]

I agree with your views on this 100%. I cannot believe a number of the arguments put forth in this thread. I respect everyone’s opinion on this subject, and the Lord knows I struggle with this issue often, but I’m sorry, I just can’t drink the kool aid that some folks do in regards to church teaching on this subject.

Meaning no disrespect to anyone, but I wonder how many posters here would change their views on a lot of subjects tomorrow, if suddenly the Church changed theirs? Seriously. God gave us the Church, and I love her, but he also gave us minds of our own, to think on our own. Yes, we are going to make mistakes, but none of us are perfect, including those that lay down the “doctrine” of the Church.

It’s nice to know there are at least some folks out there who see both sides of the issue.

Didn’t the Church already change its views by allowing NFP? This is a relatively new program, no?

 

[Jennifer_J]

Just so you know, I have never really questioned NFP because I do see a difference between it and artificial contraception. I do understand the idea that every conjugal act should be both procreative and unitive.

However, after reading through this thread, my question would be: what if God willed that couple to have a child during her unfertile times? By not engaging in sex at those times, isn’t the couple thwarting God’s Will as well? Doesn’t the couple presume that God will only want them to conceive during the fertile times? Just because the couple thinks it’s not a good time to have a child, how do they know that this is God’s Will?

I suppose God could then co-create a life, fertile or non fertile. Remember Sarah and Rebekah? Both barren until God intervened. However, part of using NFP is to prayerfully discern as a couple with God to determine if adding to the family is prudent. If discernment is difficult, taking it to a priest is always a good idea. NFP should be entered into prayerfully at all times.

Also, if you take your idea to the logical conclusion, then total abstinence would also be a problem, and it’s not–as long as there are serious/grave/just enough reasons for this.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Didn’t the Church already change its views by allowing NFP? This is a relatively new program, no?

People had recourse to total abstinence in the distant past to limit births. However, I think it’s been known since at least the late 1800’s about the woman’s cycle not being fertile all the time. The first methods were calendar based, the newer forms look at other fertility signs of the woman. I think 1853 was the first Vatican response to the use of NFP.

See this article for more info:
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502fea2.asp

 

[baylee]

Enjoying sexual relations within the marriage is a great blessing and comes under the intent of CCC 1601 “for the good of the couple”. It can be sanctifying and healing, as well as a lot of fun, for couples to share in an intimate way the intention of the Sacrament to give freely of each other to the good of the marriage and each other.
If one makes the attempt to become informed and therefore has a “well formed conscience” in these matters then the internal forum of the conscience prevails and only The Big Boss can stand in judgement.

I know this is an old thread and I’m not sure if this poster is still around…but if you are, could you elaborate on this?

 

[fix]

A properly formed conscience does not contradict Church teaching. IOW, a conscience is never above the moral law.

 

[Methodi]

I know of a couple with this exact case. The wife is subject to miscarriages. I think she already had a couple. Any pregancy could end up in a miscarriage. So, they have decided that they won’t have intercourse until her child-bearing years are over.

So, yes, it can be done!

Its not so easy for everyone, one size dont fit all

 

[magdelaine]

Thanks. I may look at the book. Like I said, we’ve used NFP for over 10 years - mostly exclusively. I could probably use a refresher course though.

I recommend Taking Charge too. I started using it way before I became Catholic so I could get away from artificial hormones.

 

[jean8]

If she had a hysterectomy only to avoid pregnancy (sounds pretty extreme) then it would be wrong. If it was medically necessary, it wouldn’t be wrong, any more than marital relations between a post-menopausal wife and her husband would be wrong.

jude.
Doctors do not give hysterectomies indiscriminately. They certainly do not operate for birth control without good reason… That is why we have birth control pills. Or we obstain.
I also know how diffificult this can be.

jean

 

[mrpathetic]

Let me speak from experience. There seem to be a number of posters in this thread, who may have thought about this experience, or know the Church’s teachings on this topic. I have lived it. So please let me speak, and please listen.

My wife and I have not had relations for 16 years. My wife had a hysterectomy. We can no longer physically have children. My wife’s hysterectomy involved the removal of the ovaries as well, so she has no sex hormones, or sexual desire, period. (She can still physically perform the act, as can I, but no pregnancy would result.) She desires to never have sex with me, or anyone else, ever again. Period. End of story.

At this point in our lives, having sex is pointless. Indeed, it would only be a selfish distraction. I have therefore given up on sexual relations with my wife. And I will not resort to adultery, masturbation, etc. We all know the sinfulness of those activities.

Essentially, I have committed myself to living out the rest of my life in 100% continence. I really have come to view this as what Christ is calling me to. I only came to this realization after nearly a year of prayer and discernment. I now can focus on other aspects of my vocational calling - serving my family, community, and God.

This is not an easy sacrifice to make, and I don’t know if everyone in my circumstance could make it. In many respects, it will be tougher than the call to abstinence which priests and religious must follow. A religious can live in a monastery, and be free of the sexual temptations of the world; I have no such option, but I am still called to continence.

I know of others who have faced this circumstance, and have resorted to adultery, divorce, masturbation, etc., to find release. I simply will not do that. I will not surrender my soul for some cheap sexual gratification. No thank you.

I simply pray to the Lord, to give me the grace and strength, to prepare me for this lifelong battle that I will face. I have normal sexual desires, like any man, and I will need to subjugate them, in order to live out this calling. This may be the greatest challenge to my faith that I will ever face. I trust in the Lord, to bring me down the right path.