Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

[emeraldcoast]

Let me speak from experience. There seem to be a number of posters in this thread, who may have thought about this experience, or know the Church’s teachings on this topic. I have lived it. So please let me speak, and please listen.

My wife and I have not had relations for 16 years. My wife had a hysterectomy. We can no longer physically have children. My wife’s hysterectomy involved the removal of the ovaries as well, so she has no sex hormones, or sexual desire, period. (She can still physically perform the act, as can I, but no pregnancy would result.) She desires to never have sex with me, or anyone else, ever again. Period. End of story.

At this point in our lives, having sex is pointless. Indeed, it would only be a selfish distraction. I have therefore given up on sexual relations with my wife. And I will not resort to adultery, masturbation, etc. We all know the sinfulness of those activities.

Essentially, I have committed myself to living out the rest of my life in 100% continence. I really have come to view this as what Christ is calling me to. I only came to this realization after nearly a year of prayer and discernment. I now can focus on other aspects of my vocational calling - serving my family, community, and God.

This is not an easy sacrifice to make, and I don’t know if everyone in my circumstance could make it. In many respects, it will be tougher than the call to abstinence which priests and religious must follow. A religious can live in a monastery, and be free of the sexual temptations of the world; I have no such option, but I am still called to continence.

I know of others who have faced this circumstance, and have resorted to adultery, divorce, masturbation, etc., to find release. I simply will not do that. I will not surrender my soul for some cheap sexual gratification. No thank you.

I simply pray to the Lord, to give me the grace and strength, to prepare me for this lifelong battle that I will face. I have normal sexual desires, like any man, and I will need to subjugate them, in order to live out this calling. This may be the greatest challenge to my faith that I will ever face. I trust in the Lord, to bring me down the right path.

Hi MrPathetic ( I feel bad calling you by your username.),

This is not your ideal belief of what marriage is, correct? Don’t you want to be more then just the nice guy that empties the dishwasher or takes out the trash to your wife? With love making not being a part of your marriage has romance also gone out the window? What about your spiritual connection with your wife? Do you pray together?

When I read your post about not having made love to your wife for 16 years, my heart broke for you and 1 Corinthians 7:5 came to my mind.

1 Corinthians 7:5

“Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.”

By the way, how did you choose your username?

God Bless!
Your Sister in Christ

 

[mrpathetic]

Hi MrPathetic ( I feel bad calling you by your username.),

This is not your ideal belief of what marriage is, correct? Don’t you want to be more then just the nice guy that empties the dishwasher or takes out the trash to your wife? With love making not being a part of your marriage has romance also gone out the window? What about your spiritual connection with your wife? Do you pray together?

When I read your post about not having made love to your wife for 16 years, my heart broke for you and 1 Corinthians 7:5 came to my mind.

1 Corinthians 7:5

“Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.”

By the way, how did you choose your username?

God Bless!
Your Sister in Christ

I have a long thread in the Family Life section, that explains my plight, so I don’t want to repeat it here. It is labeled “I am Ashamed and Pathetic.” Read it, and you will discover how I came about my username.

No, ours is not the ideal marriage, but it is the best I can hope for, under the circumstances.

My wife has abandoned Christianity, and now has labeled herself as an agnostic. I am trying to bring her back to the faith, by living as an example of Christian obedience and charity. I hope to draw her back, before it is too late. This is what I pray for (but I pray without her.) I now view this as my vocation.

This may take quite some time, so this will require tremendous patience and - another grace, which I ask the Lord for. And yes, I will ask the Lord for self-control, which I will need abundantly.

 

[emeraldcoast]

I have a long thread in the Family Life section, that explains my plight, so I don’t want to repeat it here. It is labeled “I am Ashamed and Pathetic.” Read it, and you will discover how I came about my username.

No, ours is not the ideal marriage, but it is the best I can hope for, under the circumstances.

My wife has abandoned Christianity, and now has labeled herself as an agnostic. I am trying to bring her back to the faith, by living as an example of Christian obedience and charity. I hope to draw her back, before it is too late. This is what I pray for (but I pray without her.) I now view this as my vocation.

This may take quite some time, so this will require tremendous patience and - another grace, which I ask the Lord for. And yes, I will ask the Lord for self-control, which I will need abundantly.

Hi MrChildofGod!

I read over a couple of your other posts,and I will be lifting you up in prayer!

Also, just a little side note of advice that I was once given when I shared with my friend that I was praying to God for patience. She told me “Well, I hope that you are ready to wait because God will wait to help you work on being patient!”

I thought that I would share the following with you from my evening prayers(Episcopal).

Collect of the Day:
Almighty and most merciful God, drive from us all weakness of body, mind, and spirit; that, being restored to wholeness, we may with free hearts become what you intend us to be and accomplish what you want us to do; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.

God Bless!

 

[alongexpected]

Suppose a temporary or even permanant medical condition exists that makes normal marital relations difficult yet the wife still desires to “take care of” her husband in a non-intercourse manner. Is this a mortal sin?

(How’s THAT for achieving clarity without using a naughty word?)

Un. Bee. LEEVABLE!
Why should this be wrong? And how do you people KNOW that this is a sin? Did God tell you? Please tell me why (other than “any sex act has to be open to the possibility of a child”) a wife who loves her husband and wants to please him is wrong?
Love your wife. Love your kids. Work hard. Treat others as you’d want to be treated. I THINK you’ll be fine. You guys don’t KNOW that he won’t.

 

[LovesTheFather]

I really and truly have the same concern…
I recently just had a baby and I truly believe we should take care of our spouses sexual needs and if we can’t do it vaginally…then I believe we should still take care of eachother…I know all about abstaining but sometimes you still want to be intimate with eachother…and it is not being used in a sinful manner it is simply pleasuring eachother…
we are married should we not be able to please eachother in anyway we want…I mean there isn’t anything like pornography or fantasy involved…so why not why is that sinful wanting to please eachother…I think that it is beautiful and it is taking care of eachothers needs…that I think is apart of a spouses responsibility so there is no cause to search out sin like porn or masturbation caused by fanisizing…I am a practising Catholic and I have prayed about this and if I ever feel guilt I take it to God and I feel okay…because I know God works through love and forgiveness and I know the enemy works through Guilt…and I am not about to let him get in the way of any part of my marriage by thinking it is wrong that I like to please my husband…we are open to children have two already…and I think pleasing eachother is also important in marriage…it is true and beautiful…so I think if it doesn’t include fantasy or porn…it isn’t sinful if you are married
Do you think I am wrong in my ways…maybe…but I am close to God and he has not shown me that it is a sin to want to keep my hubby satisfied and him me…

 

[mrpathetic]

I will not criticize the sex lives of others, as mine is a complete failure.

I will simply state this: I do not put my sex life above my relationship to God. I would prefer to remain abstinent, and practice 100% continence, than disobey the Lord.

**I follow all of my Church’s teachings, and give them the full ascent of faith. **This includes the teachings on sexuality. They may be difficult to accept - but no one says that being a Christian is easy. In fact, living the life of a true, authentic Christian is incredibly hard.

If I ever became sexually active again, I would not engage in any form of sexual contact that was not open to life. Why? Because I am 100% obedient to my faith.

=========================================================

I recently came here from another forum, which has primarily Protestant and Evangelic membership. I was trying to get marriage advice there. And trying to help others in my circumstance as well. That turned out to be a bad choice.

I was effectively booted out, because I would only give (and accept) advice that was in line with my Catholic beliefs. (Truth be told, I left shortly before I was to be expelled. The Protestant moderators there really don’t like me anymore. I still pray for them, and their salvation.)

It is amazing the libertine views on sexuality that exist today among non-Catholic Christians. They openly accept, and in some cases promote, masturbation, contraception, and worse. Even abortion. Many of their attitudes mirror those of the secular world.

When I put forth the Catholic Church’s teachings, that married sexuality must be open to life, I was laughed at. The Protestants thought it was ridiculous.

I don’t think so. I think the Catholic Church’s teachings on sexuality emphacize the creative aspect of sexuality - and obedience to the will of God. That is why I accept it, and will live by it - no matter how hard that may prove to be.

Piety. Obedience. Sacrifice. Humility. Those are the traits that identify us as Catholic. I am proud to live by them. I hope you are too.

 

[Spirithound]

Un. Bee. LEEVABLE!
Why should this be wrong? And how do you people KNOW that this is a sin? Did God tell you? Please tell me why (other than “any sex act has to be open to the possibility of a child”) a wife who loves her husband and wants to please him is wrong?
Love your wife. Love your kids. Work hard. Treat others as you’d want to be treated. I THINK you’ll be fine. You guys don’t KNOW that he won’t.

A wife wanting to please her husband is not wrong. A husband who allows his wife to degrade herself is wrong.

 

[baylee]

Here’s another question regarding this thread. So many folks have stated that every act that is not open to life between a husband and wife is “grave matter” or “gravely disordered” (and therefore potentially mortal sins). I see nothing of the sort in the Catechism…other than the section that discusses intentional, artificial contraception. Where have these posters made this conclusion? As for other books and writings that they refer to, I would think that it would be unnecessary to read them because what is necessary to know is in the Catechism.

 

[TLM08]

I really and truly have the same concern…
I recently just had a baby and I truly believe we should take care of our spouses sexual needs and if we can’t do it vaginally…then I believe we should still take care of eachother…I know all about abstaining but sometimes you still want to be intimate with eachother…and it is not being used in a sinful manner it is simply pleasuring eachother…
we are married should we not be able to please eachother in anyway we want…I mean there isn’t anything like pornography or fantasy involved…so why not why is that sinful wanting to please eachother…I think that it is beautiful and it is taking care of eachothers needs…that I think is apart of a spouses responsibility so there is no cause to search out sin like porn or masturbation caused by fanisizing…I am a practising Catholic and I have prayed about this and if I ever feel guilt I take it to God and I feel okay…because I know God works through love and forgiveness and I know the enemy works through Guilt…and I am not about to let him get in the way of any part of my marriage by thinking it is wrong that I like to please my husband…we are open to children have two already…and I think pleasing eachother is also important in marriage…it is true and beautiful…so I think if it doesn’t include fantasy or porn…it isn’t sinful if you are married
Do you think I am wrong in my ways…maybe…but I am close to God and he has not shown me that it is a sin to want to keep my hubby satisfied and him me…

Amen to that. I believe that there are some human forces at work on this issue. The celibate leaders of the church want concerns of pregnancy to be constantly present every single time a man and wife wish to have sex. This, along with the fear of committing an “impure act” and it’s hellish consequences ensures that the couple will not truly be able to relax and enjoy the intense eroticism of the sexual experience completely. If we (the church leaders) are not permitted to have sex, then by golly, we are going to keep a lid on your pleasure too!

After all, how many women who are wiping the little noses and butts, cleaning up vomit, and all of the the crying at night of a new baby along with three or four small children already are truly excited about the idea having her man firing all of those little “swimmers” inside her yet again and again? How can he be able to relax and enjoy sex with her when he is already working 60 hours a week trying to keep his family of six (or more) fed, clothed, housed, insured, medical care, transportation, catholic school tuition… etc… etc?

Of course, God designed sex to be pleasurable to ensure that the human race would continue on. Sex is by it’s very nature procreative, intimate and beautiful. Children are indeed a gift from God. But the man and wife who have procreated several times already have done their job!

Mark my words… If the catholic church ever permits the clergy to marry, the ban on artificial birth control will be gone within just a few decades.

 

[baylee]

The celibate leaders of the church want concerns of pregnancy to be constantly present every single time a man and wife wish to have sex. This, along with the fear of committing an “impure act” and it’s hellish consequences ensures that the couple will not truly be able to relax and enjoy the intense eroticism of the sexual experience completely. If we (the church leaders) are not permitted to have sex, then by golly, we are going to keep a lid on your pleasure too!

Although I do not have the same feelings towards my Church leaders as you do, I do agree with you regarding the natural consequences of requiring every sex act to be open to life. I’d be interested to know what you think of my above post regarding grave matter?

 

[TLM08]

Although I do not have the same feelings towards my Church leaders as you do, I do agree with you regarding the natural consequences of requiring every sex act to be open to life. I’d be interested to know what you think of my above post regarding grave matter?

You said:
*Here’s another question regarding this thread. So many folks have stated that every act that is not open to life between a husband and wife is “grave matter” or “gravely disordered” (and therefore potentially mortal sins). I see nothing of the sort in the Catechism…other than the section that discusses intentional, artificial contraception. Where have these posters made this conclusion? As for other books and writings that they refer to, I would think that it would be unnecessary to read them because what is necessary to know is in the Catechism. *

I’m not sure where it is in the catechim without looking it up, but yes, “pulling out” …Oral pleasures… in other words, deliberately ejaculating anywhere but in the vagina is banned by the church! It is a mortal sin and if you don’t confess it to the priest and stop doing it, you are going to hell.

If this is inaccurate, someone please correct me.

 

[Spirithound]

Mark my words… If the catholic church ever permits the clergy to marry, the ban on artificial birth control will be gone within just a few decades.

Been there, done that, didn’t happen.

 

[TLM08]

Been there, done that, didn’t happen.

This was 900 years ago when women were treated pretty much as breeding stock much like cattle. Celibacy for the clergy was an on and off again proposition through the early centuries of the church. The immorality of those times makes modern day times look like the victorian era in many respects. Child prostitution, polygamy, and all sorts of sexual perversion was acceptable, legal and ran rampant… even among the married clergy of that era. The sexual history of the clergy is indeed quite ugly. Ironcally, the last 200 years or so has probably been among the cleanest in history. Due to the media, the recent scandal got the attention (it did deserve). Most priests these days are good, moral and decent men. I’m not here to bash them.

I stand by my previous statement. If the celibacy requirement was to be lifted and clergy again allowed to marry, the ban on artificial birth control would be lifted within a few decades.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Here are some articles which address sexual sins within marriage:
catholicplanet.com/CCSE/index.htm

Faithful married Catholics who sincerely wish to avoid any objective mortal sins must take care not to listen to persons who justify and promote all manner of unnatural sexual acts within marriage, using numerous different excuses. For God who created man and women has never intended such acts to be used by anyone, for any purpose whatsoever. Or do you think that if Christ himself were asked whether a married couple can commit various unnatural sexual acts that he would give his approval? He did not permit a man to even look at a woman with lust in his heart. He did not permit divorce and remarriage (even though Moses permitted it). Neither Jesus or Mary, nor any faithful imitators of them, would condone unnatural sexual acts: not within marriage, not outside of marriage, not for any purpose or in any circumstances at all. For all unnatural sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral.

[Ephesians 5]
{5:1} Therefore, as most beloved sons, be imitators of God.
{5:2} And walk in love, just as Christ also loved us and delivered himself for us, as an oblation and a sacrifice to God, with a fragrance of sweetness.
{5:3} But let not any kind of fornication, or impurity, or rapacity so much as be named among you, just as is worthy of the saints,
{5:4} nor any indecent, or foolish, or abusive talk, for this is without purpose; but instead, give thanks.
{5:5} For know and understand this: no one who is a fornicator, or lustful, or rapacious (for these are a kind of service to idols) holds an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
{5:6} Let no one seduce you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God was sent upon the sons of unbelief.
{5:7} Therefore, do not choose to become participants with them.
{5:8} For you were darkness, in times past, but now you are light, in the Lord. So then, walk as sons of the light.
{5:9} For the fruit of the light is in all goodness and justice and truth,
{5:10} affirming what is well-pleasing to God.
{5:11} And so, have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead, refute them.
{5:12} For the things that are done by them in secret are shameful, even to mention.

 

[mrpathetic]

Although I do not have the same feelings towards my Church leaders as you do, I do agree with you regarding the natural consequences of requiring every sex act to be open to life. I’d be interested to know what you think of my above post regarding grave matter?

The Church believes that all illicit activity regarding human sexuality is serious sin.

Human sexuality is no joking matter. Indeed, the power to reproduce is one of the greatests gifts that God has given us. So any use (or misuse) of this power must be taken seriously.

So any violations of the Church’s teachings on sexuality to be gravely serious. This includes violations that take place between man and wife.

 

[TLM08]

The Church believes that all illicit activity regarding human sexuality is serious sin.

Human sexuality is no joking matter. Indeed, the power to reproduce is one of the greatests gifts that God has given us. So any use (or misuse) of this power must be taken seriously.

So any violations of the Church’s teachings on sexuality to be gravely serious. This includes violations that take place between man and wife.

Food is a gift as well. The purpose of food is to sustain life. Without it, we will die. Candy and pop have virtually no nutritional value whatsoever. They are consumed strictly for comfort and pleasure. Why isn’t that a serious sin too?

 

[baylee]

The Church believes that all illicit activity regarding human sexuality is serious sin.

Human sexuality is no joking matter. Indeed, the power to reproduce is one of the greatests gifts that God has given us. So any use (or misuse) of this power must be taken seriously.

So any violations of the Church’s teachings on sexuality to be gravely serious. This includes violations that take place between man and wife.

If whatever violations you speak of are meant for husband and wife relations, why doesn’t the Catechism state this? The only time that the Catechism refers to behavior between a husband and wife as intrinsically evil is the following paragraph…and it is specifically referring to Humana Vitae which involves the Church’s response to artificial contraception:

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil

 

[mrpathetic]

If whatever violations you speak of are meant for husband and wife relations, why doesn’t the Catechism state this? The only time that the Catechism refers to behavior between a husband and wife as intrinsically evil is the following paragraph…and it is specifically referring to Humana Vitae which involves the Church’s response to artificial contraception:

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil

Actually, this is eactly the portion of the catechism to which I was referencing.

If a married couple engages in sexual contact (oral, manual, etc.) that does not end in natural intercourse, that is open to life, then it is intrinsically evil.

If you are simply engaging in OS, and not ejaculating in the vagina, without artificial birth control, then it is still gravely sinful.

It is amazing how many Catholics (even married ones) are completely ignorant of this teaching of the Church. Then again, it is not surprising, considering how poor the pre-Canaa counseling is, within this Church. The training I received 20 years ago was abyssmal.

There was a book published recently by Gregory Popcak, called “Holy Sex!” It explains this point in great detail. Popcak refers to this as the “One Rule” that should guide Catholic married couples, during their sexual experiences.

(p.s., some Catholic writers go even farther, stating that any sexual contact in marriage, other than vaginal intercourse, is sinful. Ron Conte Jr. is one of these writers, and I know he is participating in this thread. So I will allow him to defend his own teachings. I think there is logic to his analysis.)

 

[mrpathetic]

Here are some articles which address sexual sins within marriage:
catholicplanet.com/CCSE/index.htm

Faithful married Catholics who sincerely wish to avoid any objective mortal sins must take care not to listen to persons who justify and promote all manner of unnatural sexual acts within marriage, using numerous different excuses. For God who created man and women has never intended such acts to be used by anyone, for any purpose whatsoever. Or do you think that if Christ himself were asked whether a married couple can commit various unnatural sexual acts that he would give his approval? He did not permit a man to even look at a woman with lust in his heart. He did not permit divorce and remarriage (even though Moses permitted it). Neither Jesus or Mary, nor any faithful imitators of them, would condone unnatural sexual acts: not within marriage, not outside of marriage, not for any purpose or in any circumstances at all. For all unnatural sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral.

[Ephesians 5]
{5:1} Therefore, as most beloved sons, be imitators of God.
{5:2} And walk in love, just as Christ also loved us and delivered himself for us, as an oblation and a sacrifice to God, with a fragrance of sweetness.
{5:3} But let not any kind of fornication, or impurity, or rapacity so much as be named among you, just as is worthy of the saints,
{5:4} nor any indecent, or foolish, or abusive talk, for this is without purpose; but instead, give thanks.
{5:5} For know and understand this: no one who is a fornicator, or lustful, or rapacious (for these are a kind of service to idols) holds an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
{5:6} Let no one seduce you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God was sent upon the sons of unbelief.
{5:7} Therefore, do not choose to become participants with them.
{5:8} For you were darkness, in times past, but now you are light, in the Lord. So then, walk as sons of the light.
{5:9} For the fruit of the light is in all goodness and justice and truth,
{5:10} affirming what is well-pleasing to God.
{5:11} And so, have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead, refute them.
{5:12} For the things that are done by them in secret are shameful, even to mention.

I Agree. It may help, Ron, if you list out what are the unnatural acts. Believe it or not, some Catholics may believe that oral sex is natural.

By natural, you mean sex acts that are open to life, and by unnatural, you mean sex acts that are not open to life - correct?

You may want to explain this in detail. I have read your works, but other folks in this forum probably have not.

 

[baylee]

Actually, this is eactly the portion of the catechism to which I was referencing.

**If a married couple engages in sexual contact (oral, manual, etc.) that does not end in natural intercourse, that is open to life, then it is intrinsically evil. **

If you are simply engaging in OS, and not ejaculating in the vagina, without artificial birth control, then it is still gravely sinful.

But that is not the purpose of this portion of the Catechism nor is it the purpose of Humana Vitae. Both are focusing on artificial contraception…not what types of sexual conduct is appropriate and which ones are not. It is stating that any action before, during or after intercourse that renders procreation impossible is intrinsically evil.