Mortal Sin Question

[PerryJ]

I am not sure this is quite the same.

You see in your scenario the time sequence is
(1) Man jumps bridge
(2) Man cries out to God and presumably repents
(3) Man dies

In my scenario the time sequence is
(1) Peter denies Christ
(2) Peter repents a couple of hours later when the rooster crows

My interest is the eternal state of Peter between point in time 1 and point in time 2 if Peter had died. With your example the man dies after point in time 2.

Although this might sound like nitpicking, to me it really is not.

I understand your question; but, don’t know the answer. I believe Christ would look into the heart of Peter and judge. Christ is merciful and just.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Did Peter intentionally deny Jesus or did he do it out of fear? Certain emotions MINIMIZE our guilt in the matter.

 

[ralphinal]

Did Peter intentionally deny Peter or did he do it out of fear? Certain emotions MINIMIZE our guilt in the matter.

Exactly!

There are issues that can reduce our cupability (blame). Fear is one of them.

 

[With_Questions]

Exactly!

There are issues that can reduce our cupability (blame). Fear is one of them.

OK. So let’s run with this a few minutes.

Now we know that Peter got himself to where he was because he deliberately ignored the Lord’s warning to him earlier and was in a place where really he shouldn’t have been. In that place the emotion of fear took over and he fell.

Isn’t some variant of this process exactly the process Christians use when they sin.

I mean they don’t say to themselves, I think I will get up this morning, reject God and rob a bank. That is absurd.

Christians sin because of stuff like misplaced priorities, pride, self-sufficiency, anger, unforgiveness, etc. At least I know that is true in my life, and from what I have observed is true in the lives of others. These are the passions we deal with daily and will continue to deal with.

Because of these passions, we find ourselves in positions we shouldn’t be in and eventually acting in a way we should not. Just like Peter and just like my hunter friend.

James 1:13-15 seems to describe this process quite well.

I have noted this Scripture teaches sin brings forth death. But just as sin does not immediately follow lust, I can also conclude that death does not immediately follow sin. There is some time period where God works on the believer to bring him to repentance.

We see this period of grace in the life of Peter. This period of grace presumably was in effect for my hunter friend and (as I stated) presumably would have brought him to repentance.

 

[steve_b]

OK. So let’s run with this a few minutes.

Now we know that Peter got himself to where he was because he deliberately ignored the Lord’s warning to him earlier and was in a place where really he shouldn’t have been. In that place the emotion of fear took over and he fell.

Isn’t some variant of this process exactly the process Christians use when they sin.

I mean they don’t say to themselves, I think I will get up this morning, reject God and rob a bank. That is absurd.

Christians sin because of stuff like misplaced priorities, pride, self-sufficiency, anger, unforgiveness, etc. At least I know that is true in my life, and from what I have observed is true in the lives of others. These are the passions we deal with daily and will continue to deal with.

Because of these passions, we find ourselves in positions we shouldn’t be in and eventually acting in a way we should not. Just like Peter and just like my hunter friend.

James 1:13-15 seems to describe this process quite well.

I have noted this Scripture teaches sin brings forth death. But just as sin does not immediately follow lust, I can also conclude that death does not immediately follow sin. There is some time period where God works on the believer to bring him to repentance.

We see this period of grace in the life of Peter. This period of grace presumably was in effect for my hunter friend and (as I stated) presumably would have brought him to repentance.

Depends on which sin you’re talking about.

1 Jn 5:
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God * will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

All of us will die in the flesh. The death and life spoken of here refers to the different impact mortal vs venial sin has on the soul .

 

[Thing]

OK. So let’s run with this a few minutes.

Now we know that Peter got himself to where he was because he deliberately ignored the Lord’s warning to him earlier and was in a place where really he shouldn’t have been. In that place the emotion of fear took over and he fell.

Isn’t some variant of this process exactly the process Christians use when they sin.

I mean they don’t say to themselves, I think I will get up this morning, reject God and rob a bank. That is absurd.

Christians sin because of stuff like misplaced priorities, pride, self-sufficiency, anger, unforgiveness, etc. At least I know that is true in my life, and from what I have observed is true in the lives of others. These are the passions we deal with daily and will continue to deal with.

Because of these passions, we find ourselves in positions we shouldn’t be in and eventually acting in a way we should not. Just like Peter and just like my hunter friend.

James 1:13-15 seems to describe this process quite well.

I have noted this Scripture teaches sin brings forth death. But just as sin does not immediately follow lust, I can also conclude that death does not immediately follow sin. There is some time period where God works on the believer to bring him to repentance.

We see this period of grace in the life of Peter. This period of grace presumably was in effect for my hunter friend and (as I stated) presumably would have brought him to repentance.

Wht not use the example of Judas, who, through your ‘misplaced priorities of, pride,…etc.’ we might also add ‘greed’, fell like your hunter and betrayed his master.
However, unlike your hunter - you say, Judas has gone to the place he chose for himself.
Your hunter can no more escape than Judas can escape unless he manages to follow St. Peters example before he dies.

 

[Thing]

We see this period of grace in the life of Peter. This period of grace presumably was in effect for my hunter friend and (as I stated) presumably would have brought him to repentance.

Mortal sin, as people keep saying is not accidental, the moment Peter was recalled to Christs words he realized that he had in fact denied Him and at that very same moment of realization he felt remorse.

Your hunter, however, sets about his task knowing that he is denying his master, for want of a better phrase, by doing so.
Your hunter has full knowledge of what he is about and continues nonetheless. Your hunter feels no remorse.

 

[With_Questions]

Mortal sin, as people keep saying is not accidental, the moment Peter was recalled to Christs words he realized that he had in fact denied Him and at that very same moment of realization he felt remorse.

Your hunter, however, sets about his task knowing that he is denying his master, for want of a better phrase, by doing so.
Your hunter has full knowledge of what he is about and continues nonetheless. Your hunter feels no remorse.

Is this your opinion?

Or is this the official position of Catholicism where any other position would be heretical?

 

[Thing]

Is this your opinion?

Or is this the official position of Catholicism where any other position would be heretical?

Is what my opinion?

Mortal sin is not accidental?

There must be full consent?
There must be full knowledge?
There must be a serious charge?

That is the definition of sin which is mortal.

 

[With_Questions]

Is what my opinion?

Mortal sin is not accidental?

There must be full consent?
There must be full knowledge?
There must be a serious charge?

That is the definition of sin which is mortal.

Never mind.

I am getting frustrated because I don’t think my questions are understood.

 

[ralphinal]

Never mind.

I am getting frustrated because I don’t think my questions are understood.

I do not want you to be frustraited. Let us simplify this.

Forget all the hypotheticals. Forget the hunter, forget Peter, and forget Judas for one minute.

In order for it to be a mortal sin, and cost you salvation, there are three conditions.

First, it must be serious. Serious is a major violation of any of the ten commandments.

Second, you must KNOW it is serious and is sinful in nature.

Third, you must choose to commit the act with full knowledge and freedom of choice.

Does that help?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Never mind.

I am getting frustrated because I don’t think my questions are understood.

When we plan a vacation or ANY trip, it with with Sunday and Holyday Mass factored into the schedule and if we see that it is not possible to attend Mass even under our best attempts, we ask our priest for dispensation before hand so that no sin will be committed.

If we receive the dispensation, then there is no problem. If we don’t receive it, then we don’t go on the trip. Nothing is worth losing your soul to the fires of hell for all of eternity.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

When we plan a vacation or ANY trip, it with with Sunday and Holyday Mass factored into the schedule and if we see that it is Mass is just not possible even under our best attempts, we ask our priest for dispensation before hand so that no sin will be committed.

If we receive the dispensation, then there is no problem. If we don’t receive it, then we don’t go on the trip. Nothing is worth losing your soul to the fires of hell for all of eternity.

Out of curiosity as I am not familiar with this, what determines whether dispensation is given?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Because of these passions, we find ourselves in positions we shouldn’t be in and eventually acting in a way we should not. Just like Peter and just like my hunter friend.

One of the differences between Peter and your hunter is giving consent to the sin.

Peter was scared and acted impetuously. Your hunter, on the other hand, knew that he had an obligation and chose to ignore it. He knew he would be away on Sunday and did nothing about it. Right there is a difference in their attitudes.

Out of curiosity as I am not familiar with this, what determines whether dispensation is given?

It’s up to the pastor to give a dispensation.

From the Catechism:

2181
The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) **or dispensed by their own pastor.**119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

So if you know that on a particular Sunday or holy day you will be at a distance from a church and may be unable to attend Mass, you can ask your pastor for a dispensation.

This might also be the way to deal with a situation brought up earlier where you would be traveling for several months and sometimes be close to a church and sometimes far away. If you care about your obligation you could ask in advance for a dispensation and not have to worry whether 25 miles is a reasonable distance to go to Mass.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Out of curiosity as I am not familiar with this, what determines whether dispensation is given?

It depends on the priest. Usually he’ll ask questions why you will be missing mass, offer suggestions and then based on how all of that goes, either grant the dispensation or not.

Last year I was helping my sister-in-law move across country and on Sunday we were going to be within an area of a church which had only one mass scheduled and we had two dogs with us that could not be left alone. Unless we brought the dogs to mass, one of us would be missing mass.

Upon hearing all of the details, the priest granted a dispensation for ONE of us to miss mass that day under the condition that we read the scripture readings that day, perform a spiritual communion following the readings and upon our return, attend mass during the week to make up for that missed mass. Under those conditions, one of us was excused from attending mass on that Sunday.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

Are there principles according to which those dispensations are granted? If so, what is the origin of/basis for such principles?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Are there principles according to which those dispensations are granted? If so, what is the origin of/basis for such principles?

I’m sure that there are principles but that is something for the priest to be concerned with. As far as the origin – how about, "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loosen on earth will be loosen in heaven …

 

[With_Questions]

I do not want you to be frustraited. Let us simplify this.

Forget all the hypotheticals. Forget the hunter, forget Peter, and forget Judas for one minute.

In order for it to be a mortal sin, and cost you salvation, there are three conditions.

First, it must be serious. Serious is a major violation of any of the ten commandments.

Second, you must KNOW it is serious and is sinful in nature.

Third, you must choose to commit the act with full knowledge and freedom of choice.

Does that help?

Yes it does.

If I were Catholic I would be absolutely paranoid of an unfortunately timed death condemning me to hell eternally.

This fear would drive me insane. I honestly don’t know why this drives you all nuts to be honest.

For example, yhou said you can sometimes go a long time without moral sin. That is absolutely not good enough for me. If I were Catholic I would have to be absolutely sure I can live a lifetime without commiting mortal sin. Otherwise this would drive me insane.

Fortunately I am not Catholic. Even though I don’t believe in eternal security, I do believe in a security that is grounded in a relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

For example, yhou said you can sometimes go a long time without moral sin. That is absolutely not good enough for me. If I were Catholic I would have to be absolutely sure I can live a lifetime without commiting mortal sin. Otherwise this would drive me insane.

I think I’m confused now.

Have you never sinned?

There are only two people I can think of who can answer yes to that question – Jesus and his mother.

So assuming that you have sinned, the one advantage that Catholics have over non-Catholics is sacramental absolution. We KNOW our sins are forgiven.

I think what would drive me insane would be the situation of NOT knowing that I had been forgiven.

 

[ralphinal]

Yes it does.

If I were Catholic I would be absolutely paranoid of an unfortunately timed death condemning me to hell eternally.

This fear would drive me insane. I honestly don’t know why this drives you all nuts to be honest.

For example, yhou said you can sometimes go a long time without moral sin. That is absolutely not good enough for me. If I were Catholic I would have to be absolutely sure I can live a lifetime without commiting mortal sin. Otherwise this would drive me insane.

Fortunately I am not Catholic. Even though I don’t believe in eternal security, I do believe in a security that is grounded in a relationship with Jesus Christ.

There are some that are offset by this. BY and large, they would be troubled no matter what faith. THe reality is that serious matter is not that common in some ways, such as murder, and too common in others, like sex. Most of us can avoid it easily.

Sometimes, it is not easy to avoid. Even then, we have ways to atone. It is really more comforting than it is troubling.

We can and should avoid those places and people that tempt us to sin. That makes it easier. The hard part is not sinning when no one is around.

Do not let Mortal sin be an issue with you. It is a beautiful teaching and not at all unsettling once you get the full grasp of it.