Mortal Sin Question

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Now you seem to be giving a totally different answer than what I have received so far. So let me think of the correct question to ask here to see if this is the case. I am interested whether your scenario still suffers from the randomness problem.

Let us say immediately after missing mass this hunter does feel guilt about what he had done (as is the norm when one sins). But he does not deal with this guilt immediately.

Now had he lived, undoubtably he would have eventually dealt with the guilt he had, but unfortunately he was killed prior to this point in time.

Are you saying that the fact that he had guilt right after missing mass indicative that this was done without full “knowledge and consent”? If so you seem to have a different understanding of this phrase than other Catholics.
After reading much of this thread after me you still seem to think the Church judges who goes to hell or not. I never said this man did anything without full knowledge. He knows full well that he is sinning and that his soul is in jeopardy. Any Good Christian knows this just as you do when you sin. The bottom line is that these silly hypothetical Questions like the one you have posed here can not be answered correctly because we do not Judge who gets into heaven nor Hell.

My question for you is… When you sin do you believe your soul is in jeopardy. If so, Why! If not, Why. As Christians we know that sin seperates us from God because he has told us so. If you have a problem with that you need to take it up with God. If on the other hand your problem is not believeing what the church teaches about missing mass then so be it!

Peace
 
My question for you is… When you sin do you believe your soul is in jeopardy. If so, Why! If not, Why. As Christians we know that sin seperates us from God because he has told us so. If you have a problem with that you need to take it up with God. If on the other hand your problem is not believeing what the church teaches about missing mass then so be it!

Peace
Good question.

Well I do think the church teachings on what is mortal and what is not is very arbitrary and smacks on the church deciding for God what sins he will send folks to hell for. However,that is a secondary issue, and it is not the question that I am asking.

My biggie issue is the on-off-on-off eternal destiny with the Lord that you all seem to be teaching.

Anyway, to your question.

If I turn to James chapter 1, I read of a progression of lust giving birth to sin bringing forth death.

Obviously when I sin I am closer to the point of death then if I kept my act together. So in that sense yes my soul is in jeopardy.

But the key point is that I am not yet death yet. God as my father is now dealing with me to repent.

Now if I refuse to repent, the scripture does teach that this sin will eventually bring forth death. But from my experience I never get to this point. The people that I see get to this point totally lose interest in God and in keeping in a relationship with him.

My hunter friend in my scenario had not reached this point. He is just in a position of temporary rebellion from the Lord which the Lord graciously draws him back from.

As stubborn as I may be at times, my heavenly father has always been faithful to draw my wandering heart back to him. I am thankful for his mercy for doing so.
 
Well I do think the church teachings on what is mortal and what is not is very arbitrary and smacks on the church deciding for God what sins he will send folks to hell for. However,that is a secondary issue, and it is not the question that I am asking.

My biggie issue is the on-off-on-off eternal destiny with the Lord that you all seem to be teaching.
When the church says this or that is a mortal sin when committed with full knowledge & full consent and any unrepentant & forgiven mortal sin will damn us to hell for all eternity, they are exercising the authority given to them by the Son of God.

Or, do you believe that Jesus was lying when He said in Matthew 16:19“And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.” This is such an important point that it is repeated again in Matthew 18:18“Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.”

If you disbelieve our Lord here, how can you believe anything else that He taught & promised?
 
I think I’m confused now.

Have you never sinned?

There are only two people I can think of who can answer yes to that question – Jesus and his mother.

So assuming that you have sinned, the one advantage that Catholics have over non-Catholics is sacramental absolution. We KNOW our sins are forgiven.

I think what would drive me insane would be the situation of NOT knowing that I had been forgiven.
Not that I believe your confession is a bad thing.

But when Jesus restores me in a relationship with him, I too know that I have been forgiven.
 
When the church says this or that is a mortal sin when committed with full knowledge & full consent and any unrepentant & forgiven mortal sin will damn us to hell for all eternity, they are exercising the authority given to them by the Son of God.

Or, do you believe that Jesus was lying when He said in Matthew 16:19“And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.” This is such an important point that it is repeated again in Matthew 18:18“Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.”

If you disbelieve our Lord here, how can you believe anything else that He taught & promised?
How do you know that your interpretation of these Scriptures is the correct one?

At any rate this is a separate issue.
 
Good question.

Well I do think the church teachings on what is mortal and what is not is very arbitrary and smacks on the church deciding for God what sins he will send folks to hell for. However,that is a secondary issue, and it is not the question that I am asking.

My biggie issue is the on-off-on-off eternal destiny with the Lord that you all seem to be teaching.

Anyway, to your question.

If I turn to James chapter 1, I read of a progression of lust giving birth to sin bringing forth death.

Obviously when I sin I am closer to the point of death then if I kept my act together. So in that sense yes my soul is in jeopardy.

But the key point is that I am not yet death yet. God as my father is now dealing with me to repent.

Now if I refuse to repent, the scripture does teach that this sin will eventually bring forth death. But from my experience I never get to this point. The people that I see get to this point totally lose interest in God and in keeping in a relationship with him.

My hunter friend in my scenario had not reached this point. He is just in a position of temporary rebellion from the Lord which the Lord graciously draws him back from.

As stubborn as I may be at times, my heavenly father has always been faithful to draw my wandering heart back to him. I am thankful for his mercy for doing so.
I think that I am beginning to understand a little bit.

God does not owe us time to repent. We are not garanteed one minute. Should he give us time to do so, how merciful he is. That is why we must be on our guard at all times.
 
Good question.

Well I do think the church teachings on what is mortal and what is not is very arbitrary and smacks on the church deciding for God what sins he will send folks to hell for. However,that is a secondary issue, and it is not the question that I am asking.

My biggie issue is the on-off-on-off eternal destiny with the Lord that you all seem to be teaching.

Anyway, to your question.

If I turn to James chapter 1, I read of a progression of lust giving birth to sin bringing forth death.

Obviously when I sin I am closer to the point of death then if I kept my act together. So in that sense yes my soul is in jeopardy. What happens if you died at this exact moment before God decides to pull you back to him? I would also like to know that when you are in this state, in the middle of the sin, or even before you act upon the temptation, do you realize it is a sin but go ahead and act anyway?

But the key point is that I am not yet death yet. God as my father is now dealing with me to repent. None of us are truly dead until we send ourselves to Hell!

Now if I refuse to repent, the scripture does teach that this sin will eventually bring forth death. But from my experience I never get to this point. Good for you but just as your hunter friend what happens if you died before repenting? The people that I see get to this point totally lose interest in God and in keeping in a relationship with him.

My hunter friend in my scenario had not reached this point. He is just in a position of temporary rebellion from the Lord which the Lord graciously draws him back from.Actually the hunter in your scenario was not drawn back from his sin as he was not able to repent before he was killed. He died with, what a Catholic believes to be, a mortal sin on his conscenice. As would you if you died before repenting. But as I said before, no one will truly know if him/you/us will be in hell because we do not know the true condition of his soul only God does. So YES this sin could send him to hell… Is that whare he is at, who knows!

As stubborn as I may be at times, my heavenly father has always been faithful to draw my wandering heart back to him. I am thankful for his mercy for doing so.I pray that our most gracious Lord continues to bless you throughout all your days and a the hour of your death that he is there to greet you with a most blessed smile and takes you straight to heaven!
Peace
 
How do you know that your interpretation of these Scriptures is the correct one?

At any rate this is a separate issue.
Not really, the issue of authority is in direct relation to the churches view upon this issue.

The Catholic church believes it is the true church started by Jesus.

The Catholic Church put the Bible together on the account that it’s scriptures agreed with it’s interpretation and the truth as passed down -through the traditions orally and written- by the apostles.

So athough you can question if the Churches interpretation is correct if you want but then you must also question your interpretation. Never knowing if you are truly correct or not!

Peace!
 
I think that I am beginning to understand a little bit.

God does not owe us time to repent. We are not garanteed one minute. Should he give us time to do so, how merciful he is. That is why we must be on our guard at all times.
Well, God does now owe us anything.

He didn’t have to send Jesus to die on the Cross but he did.

I guess this is where I disagree with Catholicism.

Catholicism says that at the point of performing a grave sin, provided you know it is grave and you know what you are doing, that you immediately go to hell. At the point of repentance your eternal salvation returns. Until the next point in time you commit a mortal sin. Then your eternal salvation disappears, until the next point in time where you repent.

I disagree.

This creates a scenario where one’s eternal status is like a light bulb. On, off, on, off. A badly timed death can send a genuine believer who in his heart loves the Lord Jesus Christ to hell because this believer entered a temporary period of disobedience.

I disagree.

I believe that the only way that the eternal status of a genuine believer in the Lord Jesus Christ can flick from on back to off is if this believer walks away and turns his back to the Lord. I do believe that sin can harden the heart of a genuine believer and eventually lead him to the point of turning his back on the Lord (see the book of James). However I do not believe that this happens at the point of sin, instead I believe that this is a progression abd that death occurs at the point of turning back on the Lord.

This is the traditional Arminian position that the church I attend teaches. II believe there is some merit to the Calvinistic position when one looks upon all of this from the perspective of a sovereign God. I just don’t think that this perspective should be the perspective through which all of Scripture is viewed through.

I understand that Catholics disagree with us and think we are presuming upon the grace of God. I understand that some Protestants disagree with us and believe this all is works oriented salvation. So be it.

I think I understand Catholicism better through this discussion. If I don’t understand it, I am open to be corrected.

I just disagree.
 
To prevent another thread from veering off topic, I start this one.

Let’s say I am a good Catholic. I do all of the stuff that Good Catholics do. I love God and Jesus and have put my confidence in him.

But I am also a human good Catholic, prone to the lusts, passions, and failures of normal humans. One of my lusts and passions is that I really, really love hunting.

So this November I decide to take a week off to my hunting camp with my hunting buds to shoot Bambi. I know that I will be missing mass and that this is a mortal sin. But I really, really want to shoot Bambi.

So off to the woods my buds and I go.

I am really, really enjoying hunting. Yes I know there is a Catholic church 15 miles from my camp that I could go to to get my obligation in, but hey that is a pain and interrupts my pleasure. So hunting it will be. Not a minute of remorse here.

Until one of my friends gets careless and mistakes me for a deer and shoots me dead cold. I die in a tragic hunting accident.

Now maybe had I not died, I probably would have realized the error of my ways once I got home and started to feel guilty about this act. So as a good Catholic, I probably would have gone to confession the next time the doors were open. But, unfortunately that is a matter of speculation and in this case the opportunity did not happen anyway.

Now my understanding of Catholicism is that I go straight to hell because of mortal sin.
  • Missing mass is a grave matter because the Catholic church says so.
  • This is done with full knowledge and consent. I know that the Catholic church teaches this is a mortal sin. But because I really, really love hunting, I made a choice that for this weekend I will put my love for hunting ahead of my love for God.
Is this correct?

Note that in real life I really dislike hunting and like Norman Bates in Psycho I wouldn’t hurt a flea.
 
What happens if you died at this exact moment before God decides to pull you back to him? I would also like to know that when you are in this state, in the middle of the sin, or even before you act upon the temptation, do you realize it is a sin but go ahead and act anyway?
Good for you but just as your hunter friend what happens if you died before repenting?
Actually the hunter in your scenario was not drawn back from his sin as he was not able to repent before he was killed. He died with, what a Catholic believes to be, a mortal sin on his conscenice. As would you if you died before repenting. But as I said before, no one will truly know if him/you/us will be in hell because we do not know the true condition of his soul only God does. So YES this sin could send him to hell… Is that whare he is at, who knows!
As I said, I just disagree with Catholicism that the believer is sent to hell at the point of committing a grave sin with full knowledge and consent.

The only way our views might be considered close would be that if full knowledge and consent were viewed in such a way that it excludes the way in which normal Christians fall in real life outside of turning our backs on God (assuming that it is very rare for a Christian to say…I think I will reject God today and rob a bank). I think we would still disagree even under that perspective, but we would be close and I wouldn’t worry about spending bandwidth over the internet arguing it.
 
With Questions

It seems that you have answered your own question in determining NOT to go to church.

I would just like to tell you one thing: when you die and if you are sent to Hell, this is ETERNAL. Do you know what eternal means. It means forever and you will never have a chance of seeing God.

You have to rearrange your priorities.

You can go hunting anytime and if the church was only 15 miles away and you were determined not to go and perhaps when driving home, you were in an accident, whose fault would it be if you were sent to Hell. God does not send us to Hell, we send ourselves there.
 
Not really, the issue of authority is in direct relation to the churches view upon this issue.

The Catholic church believes it is the true church started by Jesus.

The Catholic Church put the Bible together on the account that it’s scriptures agreed with it’s interpretation and the truth as passed down -through the traditions orally and written- by the apostles.

So athough you can question if the Churches interpretation is correct if you want but then you must also question your interpretation. Never knowing if you are truly correct or not!

Peace!
I understand that the Catholic church believes it is the true church started by Jesus. I just disagree.

Which leads me to another interesting question I have thought of.

Catholics believe that Protestants are saved by virtue of their valid Baptism (unless you are some sort of very traditionalist Catholic I suppose).

However I understand that holding heretical beliefs is a mortal sin correct? I also understand that per Catholicism Protestantism is heresy?

Furthermore, I like many Protestants understand the claim of the Catholic church in this regard and yet do not accept it.

Therefore I am believing heresy under full knowledge and consent.

Therefore per Catholicism I am condemned to hell for the mortal sin of believing heresy am I not?
 
With Questions

It seems that you have answered your own question in determining NOT to go to church.

I would just like to tell you one thing: when you die and if you are sent to Hell, this is ETERNAL. Do you know what eternal means. It means forever and you will never have a chance of seeing God.

You have to rearrange your priorities.

You can go hunting anytime and if the church was only 15 miles away and you were determined not to go and perhaps when driving home, you were in an accident, whose fault would it be if you were sent to Hell. God does not send us to Hell, we send ourselves there.
Note that in real life I abhor hunting and do not own any firearms.
 
How do you know that your interpretation of these Scriptures is the correct one?
The passage is pretty plain. What other interpretation could there be?
As I said, I just disagree with Catholicism that the believer is sent to hell at the point of committing a grave sin with full knowledge and consent.
Doesn’t the bible also tells us that certain sins are “deadly” sins and we should not pray for those people because they are lost?
I understand that the Catholic church believes it is the true church started by Jesus. I just disagree.
What other church can trace it’s roots all the way to the apostles? None that I can think of except for the Catholic faith.
Note that in real life I abhor hunting and do not own any firearms.
See? Now there is the problem. I own several firearms 😛
 
I do not want you to be frustraited. Let us simplify this.

Forget all the hypotheticals. Forget the hunter, forget Peter, and forget Judas for one minute.

In order for it to be a mortal sin, and cost you salvation, there are three conditions.

First, it must be serious. Serious is a major violation of any of the ten commandments.

Second, you must KNOW it is serious and is sinful in nature.

Third, you must choose to commit the act with full knowledge and freedom of choice.

Does that help?
Actually I now just went back to your Catechism and carefully examined it as to what it does and does not say. I guess I could say this issue still bothered me and I wanted to resolve once and for all whether the answers I received here that troubled me greatly were official Catholic teaching or just your interpretations.

I have concluded that your Catechism is sufficiently ambiguous such that an interpretation that is much closer to what I believe and satisfies my biggest concerns is possible.

In other words I can legitimately interpret it in such a way that my hunter friend in my scenario is not condemned to hell. You all have been giving me your more restrictive interpretations of what it says.

The key here is exactly what is full knowledge and full consent. Your Catechism does not really define these terms. The best that it does is give examples of what it is not. I think one could argue that normal Christian sins in the ebb and flow of life are not full consent, including what my hunter friend did.

Also your catechism does not explicitely say that a person is immediately condemned to hell at the point of committing the sin. That is something that must be read in.

In sum, you all have been giving me your interpretations of your Catechism. Other interpretations are possible.

I posted an article here. The article referenced some Catholic theologians who believe that in actuality mortal sin is very rare. Although you may disagree with this, there is a legitimate reading of the Catechism that supports this.

The article also also speculates that this is a doctrine that is ripe for “development”. The article also speculates that were it to develop it would most likely develop towards the less restrictive side.

Given the genuine ambiguity that exists in your Catechism, I agree.
 
Dear With Questions, you seem to be confident that our representation of the Truth is as you say, ambiguous. If you recall, you wanted to now a little something about what the Church teaches about Mortal sin. This has been given you. You reject it and give your reasons. This is your opinion. You also have mentioned that you are shall I say, somewhere else at this point in your spiritual journey. You seem to be at a time in your life when you are undecided about certain points and are obtaining information about different religious practices. That is good. We are all seekers. You also seem to be relatively lucid in your comments so, I can assume you have a rudimentary grasp of what the Church teaches about Mortal sin. In your opening post, you gave a specific example knowing ahead that your scenario involved mortal sins. This was your acknowlegement that you already know the difference between Mortal and venial sins. Did you do this to provoke us? Perhaps. But that isn’t important.

In looking through your various comments on this thread it is obvious that you have chosen to reject the Church’s teachings and are basically on your own trying to live your “personal truths.” That is your will. I just wonder why you came here in the first place, is there something in you that may actually be being drawn to the Church? I think so. Maybe you’ll take some of your intelligently formed opinions and place them on hold for awhile. I can hope so. In the meantime I will pray for you.

Peace,

Gail

P.S. I once heard a joke that Fr. Corapi shared. I think it may go well here - forgive my telling it badly. A man sitting in a pew besides an old woman in a lecture on the 4 last things whispered to the old woman sitting next to him, “I don’t believe in Hell,” and smiled. The old woman looked at him and said without blinking, “You will when you get there!”
 
TO: WITH QUESTIONS
I do not think you were understanding what the Catechism is saying. The Catechism is the true official teaching of the Catholic Church.


With regards to the hunter, he made his own decision. He knew by not going to mass, it would be a mortal sin and he chose to hunt. So, if he were to die, whose fault would it be?

He should know the requirements of mortal sin.

I do not understand why you are questioning The Catechism. If this hunter cannot spend at least 45 minutes in church, how does he expect to live in eternity with God?

There is no excuse, the hunter made his own decision and he will be held responsible for it.

And, yes, mortal sin does exist. Although you may believe it doesn’t, it does.

All I can say in conclusion is, the hunter made his decision and he knew it was wrong to miss mass, so he has to pay the consequences unless it is confessed in Sacramental Confession.

I do not understand some of you viewers, I was studying for the Catholic priesthood, and yes, MORTAL SIN exists if you want to belive it or not.

Feel free to look at my credentials.
 
Actually I now just went back to your Catechism and carefully examined it as to what it does and does not say. I guess I could say this issue still bothered me and I wanted to resolve once and for all whether the answers I received here that troubled me greatly were official Catholic teaching or just your interpretations.

I have concluded that your Catechism is sufficiently ambiguous such that an interpretation that is much closer to what I believe and satisfies my biggest concerns is possible.

In other words I can legitimately interpret it in such a way that my hunter friend in my scenario is not condemned to hell. You all have been giving me your more restrictive interpretations of what it says.

The key here is exactly what is full knowledge and full consent. Your Catechism does not really define these terms. The best that it does is give examples of what it is not. I think one could argue that normal Christian sins in the ebb and flow of life are not full consent, including what my hunter friend did.

Also your catechism does not explicitely say that a person is immediately condemned to hell at the point of committing the sin. That is something that must be read in.

In sum, you all have been giving me your interpretations of your Catechism. Other interpretations are possible.

I posted an article here. The article referenced some Catholic theologians who believe that in actuality mortal sin is very rare. Although you may disagree with this, there is a legitimate reading of the Catechism that supports this.

The article also also speculates that this is a doctrine that is ripe for “development”. The article also speculates that were it to develop it would most likely develop towards the less restrictive side.

Given the genuine ambiguity that exists in your Catechism, I agree.
Heres another analogy, like your hunter one, but with something extra just to bring it closer to the sense of the thing from our perspective.

You are married, the story begins, and you find yourself at home relaxing one stormy evening, and your wife calls out to you from the hallway that she is going to drive into town for something or other, you hear the door bang and an engine start.

Twenty minutes later you get a phone call from your wife, whom you love dearly let me add here, she drove through a stream on the way which stalled the car, the water rose quickly because of heavy rain in the mountains and as it rose it shorted the electrics, the doors are locked and stuck the windows won’t work and the water is near the roof of the car, - can you come and help her.

Your hunter in your story would think about this and say to himself, well, my wife is twenty miles away, and frankly I think that is an unreasonable request and an unreasonable distance to travel. Goodbye my love, see you next week.

You on the other hand will take the heroic option, which you see simply as your duty, it is a sweet duty and one you love, and you rush to your love who is calling you. Neither storm nor darkness nor distance nor wild animals nor hunting trips are any obstacle - you will get to her in good time wherever she is.

For the sin part; you can judge for yourself if abandoning your love to a flooded river, or abandoning her at all when she wants you, is a serious matter, and if you had full knowledge of what that would mean - you’ve often seen pictures on tv of dead people pulled out of cars in the water, and if you consented freely to leaving her in her predicament - ‘bye honey, see you next week!’.

You go to mass only because you want to be there with ‘her’ and ‘she’ wants you there with her, there is no point in going otherwise.

25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it:

(Greek eucharistia, thanksgiving). Other titles are used, such as “Lord’s Supper” (Coena Domini), “Table of the Lord” (Mensa Domini), the “Lord’s Body” (Corpus Domini), and the “Holy of Holies” (Sanctissimum), to which may be added the following expressions, and somewhat altered from their primitive meaning: “Agape” (Love-Feast) - NA.
 
To THING:

I do not know why you are referring it to my Catechism–it is not my Catechism, it is the Church’s Catechism.

There is really nothing more to say. As I said previously, if this hunter cannot spend 45 minutes in church, how does he expect to live eternally with God?

You must know that missing mass is a mortal sin. The hunter chose to continue hunting when, in essence, he could have gone to mass, so do not blame it on God if he were to go to hell.

You mentioned that some theologians do not believe in hell. Again, that is their opinion and they know that hell exists and to give out that information is not in accordance with the Catholic Church.

You will find priests that do not listen to their bishops and do their “own” thing; there are bishops who do not listen to the Pope and this is why the entire Catholic Church is in a crisis.

I praise Pope Benedict for what he stands for!!!

I have found that many priests do their own thing and sometimes it is against church law. But you have to remember, they will be accountable onm Judgment Day as will the theologians who say mortal sin does not exist. To make this statement is completely contrary to what they learned in the seminary. As in any profession, you will have good priests and you will have bad priests, but please do not refer the Catechism as my Catechism, it is the church’s Catechism and the official word. If you do not want to believe in the Catechism, God bless you, but if you are at the age of reason, I think you kinow what the right answer is.

There really isn’t any thing else to discuss.

"To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice." [Proverbs 21:3]


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