Mortal sin question

[johnXXIII]

No one accidently goes to hell, its a free choice, a rejection of God ; the rejection of everything associated with the Godness of God. One thing I would like to remind you of is the fact that its very difficult to sin while praying., keep a prayer in you heart, always, enjoy the love of the Lord.

I was thinking of the situation of the man really wanting to go to see the game because of situations and friendship. but he is also very guilty and sorry that he is making this choice, He wiling starts out to see the game but in his heart, he is sory that he made this choice because he does love Jesus.
We could have a situation where at the time of death all of our sins flash before our eyes, perhaps this is the moment that we express our true sorry for our sins.
Its what is really in our hearts, and our love for Jesus.

 

[Doxiemom]

Well, unless going to the football game on Sunday instead of going to Mass is a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is the only unforgivable sin, then the guy will have to answer to God for his selfishness but sooner or later, he will get into heaven. Most likely he felt guilty all the way there.

Sin is serious. Willful continuing sin, without remorse, believing you’ve got it covered due to YOUR judgement that it is not blasphemy against the holy Spirit, is very dangerous.

While God is a merciful God, He is also a just and fearsome God Who will not be mocked.

 

[nkbeth]

Well, unless going to the football game on Sunday instead of going to Mass is a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is the only unforgivable sin, then the guy will have to answer to God for his selfishness but sooner or late, he will get into heaven. Most likely he felt guilty all the way there.

Sin is serious. Willful continuing sin, without remorse, believing you’ve got it covered due to YOUR judgement that it is not blasphemy against the holy Spirit, is very dangerous.

While God is a merciful God, He is also a just and fearsome God Who will not be mocked.

Any mortal sin will get you to hell if you don’t repent before you die. The fact that a sin is forgivable does not mean that “sooner or later” it is forgiven - you have to repent first. As I understand it, if you deliberately refuse to ask for forgiveness before you die, then you are committing a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit - and as long as you persist in this refusal you cannot be forgiven.

Here is a post from the Apologetics Forum here:

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is essentially the willful rejection of God’s grace and forgiveness.

A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture explains, “Unlike other blasphemies or sins which might be partially excused by ignorance, passion or inadvertence, this was[/is] a sin of willful malice and blindness to the light. As long as such a mentality persists, pardon is impossible, not because of any limitation of God, but because those who are guilty of this sin refuse to respond to the promptings of grace” (p.912).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) states, “There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss” (CCC 1864).

 

[NotTooSmart]

I was thinking of the situation of the man really wanting to go to see the game because of situations and friendship. but he is also very guilty and sorry that he is making this choice, He wiling starts out to see the game but in his heart, he is sory that he made this choice because he does love Jesus.
We could have a situation where at the time of death all of our sins flash before our eyes, perhaps this is the moment that we express our true sorry for our sins.
Its what is really in our hearts, and our love for Jesus.

Actually you raise an interesting point.

Does any Christian, when he sins, sin because we hates and us rejecting God. Or does he sin because of weakness, unforgiveness, obstinance or some other human passion.

And doesn’t a Christian when he sins, instinctively feels guilty and the tug of the Holy Spirit to make this right. And if a Christian is a true Christian that does love Jesus, won’t the Christian eventually get over what is in his way.

Think of Peter when he denied Christ. Isn’t that a picture of what happens when a Christian sins. Peter didn’t sin because he hated God. There were a number of factors that went into what Peter did, but hating God was not one of them.

And didn’t it just take one glance from our Lord’s eyes to cut Peter’s sould and turn him around.

So given the example of Peter, did he mortally sin when he denied Christ, and lost his salvation…only to get it back a few minutes later when he saw the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[nkbeth]

Does any Christian, when he sins, sin because we hates and us rejecting God. Or does he sin because of weakness, unforgiveness, obstinance or some other human passion.

Sometimes when we say something is a mortal sin, we just include one of the 3 conditions for mortal sin: a grave matter. We say an act, defined without any knowledge of the sinner or his special circumstances, is “objectively a mortal sin”.

We personally cannot be 100% certain about the other 2 requirements for a mortal sin, as it exists in the sinner: full knowledge and deliberate consent. This is between the sinner and the priest, and ultimately God.

Human weakness, such as great fear in the case of St. Peter, can certainly change the degree of both knowledge and consent. It can blind us to the truth, and numb our will.

However, I think often we give in to our weakness intentionally, and then pretend we are blameless where we are not. We make up “excuses where there are none”.

And doesn’t a Christian when he sins, instinctively feels guilty and the tug of the Holy Spirit to make this right. And if a Christian is a true Christian that does love Jesus, won’t the Christian eventually get over what is in his way.

It is possible to love Jesus but turn away from Him bit by bit to satisfy one’s own desires.
It becomes easier and easier as we go. Venial sins start turning to mortal sins. To think that it won’t in our case is simply presumption.

Christ said to take up our cross and follow Him. His love does demand something of us. Taking any sins lightly is saying “I still love You Jesus” while rejecting His loving commands. Taking mortal sin lightly is saying “I know you commanded this, and taught us it is deadly serious, but you don’t really mind, do You”?

And didn’t it just take one glance from our Lord’s eyes to cut Peter’s sould and turn him around.

Yes. But I think St. Peter recognized the full horror of his sin (denying his Lord and God and his dearest friend), at the same time as he saw the forgiveness in Christ’s eyes. St. Peter did not think “well my sin wasn’t so bad after all, since of course I loved Him all along”. God alone can judge the personal guilt of St. Peter. But I think St. Peter did not and should not have judged it lightly.

So given the example of Peter, did he mortally sin when he denied Christ,** and lost his salvation**…only to get it back a few minutes later when he saw the Lord Jesus Christ.

I think St. Peter would have said yes.​

Falling into mortal sin doesn’t make you lose your salvation - unless you die without repenting.

 

[nkbeth]

See my last post. I just have had a correction/clarification here, and a couple further comments

So given the example of Peter, did he mortally sin when he denied Christ, and lost his salvation…only to get it back a few minutes later when he saw the Lord Jesus Christ.

=============================
I think someone can commit a mortal sin without feeling intense “hatred” or “rejection” of God in his heart. Failing to obey His command because you don’t feel like it is just quietly and almost unnoticeabley shutting God out - crowding Him out with our own desires and thoughts. It can be intentional! We can fool ourself into thinking “I feel just fine about this”; but if Christ looked us in the eye, we would know better.

 

[NotTooSmart]

Thank you all for your answers.

In my mind Catholicism seems to be a hyperArminian faith (my invented word…not a real word) in this regards. I can sort of compare it to some holiness pentecostal folks I’ve known where you are not going up in the rapture if you are doing this or that sin (like women wearing pants) when the rapture comes.

To be honest, if I were to adopt this mentality, I would be driven nuts and paralyzed with fear over doing some sin and then dying at “just the wrong time”.

That is not to say that I am a Calvinist, eternally secure Christian either because I am not (mainly because I don’t get the sense in reading the NT that the apostles were Calvinists…is that an anachronism). In my mind I am somewhere in the middle between two extremes.

 

[expectthebest]

See my last post. I just have had a correction/clarification here, and a couple further comments

=============================
I think someone can commit a mortal sin without feeling intense “hatred” or “rejection” of God in his heart. Failing to obey His command because you don’t feel like it is just quietly and almost unnoticeabley shutting God out - crowding Him out with our own desires and thoughts. It can be intentional! We can fool ourself into thinking “I feel just fine about this”; but if Christ looked us in the eye, we would know better.

What if Peter would have been unlucky and died before seeing Christ and repenting?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m not a theologian or a biblical scholar, but here goes.

I am inclined to belief in the take of St. Therese of Lisieux (a doctor of the Church and therefore worthy of credence). It was her position that at, or near (whether before or after is unclear) the moment of death, everything becomes totally clear to us. We are in the presence of God, though not fully so. Every sin we have ever committed, not just the missing Mass, appears in its full panoply of ugliness, ugliness we have long denied for the most part. It is extremely painful to see with such clarity. God then offers us full forgiveness and his love, but it take an enormous humility to accept it. Yet, we know what it is, and its cost to our egos. We clearly know, at that moment, what hell is; in its fundamental nature it is self-worship forever; wrapping ourselves in the cocoon of ourselves.

We might, at that moment, but again, with full clarity, not in some flash of momentary emotion, tell God “no. I will not accept this. I know all of this, but I will not accept your judgment or your forgiveness or your love, and I hate you for doing this to me. I choose myself, now and forever.” Or we might bow before Him and admit to it all and accept the searing glow of His love and choose to love Him in return for this enormous grace.

She said that even if she had committed every sin there was to commit, she would not fear God, because she loved Him. She knew she loved Him because she acted on it. She felt, and it makes sense, that we “build” ourselves every day to be self-worshipping or God-worshipping. It’s hard to imagine anyone choosing hell, but it’s not so terribly hard to imagine anyone choosing self-love, self-justification, self-worship.

Therese had the humility to know that only acting with genuine love of God would save her, and that it would, indeed, save her because God said it would. (One must remember that love is an act of the will, not of feeling and that faith is “trust” not intellectual assent.)

The Church is not a layer of snares. “Do this and you’ll go to hell”, but a warning, a caution which God has also given us. An “other” just as God is an “other” to tell us, with love, wherein lies moral clarity; that we endanger ourselves with this or with that, and to offer, in the rather smallish terrestrial way God has allowed us, forgiveness that, really, is freely offered, not deserved, but which requires humility to approach and to accept.

 

[NotTooSmart]

I’m not a theologian or a biblical scholar, but here goes.

I am inclined to belief in the take of St. Therese of Lisieux (a doctor of the Church and therefore worthy of credence). It was her position that at, or near (whether before or after is unclear) the moment of death, everything becomes totally clear to us. We are in the presence of God, though not fully so. Every sin we have ever committed, not just the missing Mass, appears in its full panoply of ugliness, ugliness we have long denied for the most part. It is extremely painful to see with such clarity. God then offers us full forgiveness and his love, but it take an enormous humility to accept it. Yet, we know what it is, and its cost to our egos. We clearly know, at that moment, what hell is; in its fundamental nature it is self-worship forever; wrapping ourselves in the cocoon of ourselves.

We might, at that moment, but again, with full clarity, not in some flash of momentary emotion, tell God “no. I will not accept this. I know all of this, but I will not accept your judgment or your forgiveness or your love, and I hate you for doing this to me. I choose myself, now and forever.” Or we might bow before Him and admit to it all and accept the searing glow of His love and choose to love Him in return for this enormous grace.

She said that even if she had committed every sin there was to commit, she would not fear God, because she loved Him. She knew she loved Him because she acted on it. She felt, and it makes sense, that we “build” ourselves every day to be self-worshipping or God-worshipping. It’s hard to imagine anyone choosing hell, but it’s not so terribly hard to imagine anyone choosing self-love, self-justification, self-worship.

Therese had the humility to know that only acting with genuine love of God would save her, and that it would, indeed, save her because God said it would. (One must remember that love is an act of the will, not of feeling and that faith is “trust” not intellectual assent.)

The Church is not a layer of snares. “Do this and you’ll go to hell”, but a warning, a caution which God has also given us. An “other” just as God is an “other” to tell us, with love, wherein lies moral clarity; that we endanger ourselves with this or with that, and to offer, in the rather smallish terrestrial way God has allowed us, forgiveness that, really, is freely offered, not deserved, but which requires humility to approach and to accept.

This is totally off-the-wall.

But on facebook I once took one of their dumb quizzes. This one was “Which Catholic Saint are You”. My Catholic Saint was (drumroll)…St. Theresa of Lisieux.

So who am I to argue with her.

 

[Reuben_J]

…

My hypothetical assumed no opportunity to repent. Is what you are saying is that it is possible that this hypothetical would never be.

BTW this theory of last opportunity to reflect at the moment of death is not a Catholic thing only. I have heard folks on my side of the fence reflect on the possibity of this.

Just to clarify, if it is possible that we all are given a brief opportunity to reflect before the soul leaves the body, I assume this fellow would repent. However, if that is not assured, then I am assuming that no opportunity is provided.

I don’t understand. Under what circumstances would a sin not be mortal if all of the conditions of mortal sin per your Catechism are met?

The excerpt from the CCC that you posted provides clear explanation on venial and mortal sin.

Your hypothetical scenario leads to a very legalistic way of saying and determining what sin is it. We cannot answer with any certainty whether a person will go to hell or not other than from a theoretical point of view. What we see is only on the outside but we never know what is in the heart. God will ultimately judge us what is in the heart, things that humans cannot see but only he can. On top of everything else we must remember that God is a loving and a merciful God; for him there is always mitigating factor that can saves sinners from the ultimate punishment of hell.

God bless.

 

[NotTooSmart]

The excerpt from the CCC that you posted provides clear explanation on venial and mortal sin.

Your hypothetical scenario leads to a very legalistic way of saying and determining what sin is it. We cannot answer with any certainty whether a person will go to hell or not other than from a theoretical point of view. What we see is only on the outside but we never know what is in the heart. God will ultimately judge us what is in the heart, things that humans cannot see but only he can. On top of everything else we must remember that God is a loving and a merciful God; for him there is always mitigating factor that can saves sinners from the ultimate punishment of hell.

God bless.

Hmm. This seems to be a different answer than others I have gotten. While I still disagree with certain aspects of the Catholic mortal sin thing, at the same time your answer to my question is the one that I like the best (so far).

 

[Doxiemom]

Best to stay away from the strict and legalistic reading of canon law and instead read the hopeful and wonderful message of the love and mercy of our God that is in there.

Yet it makes it clear, that we must also fear God. And yes, the word “fear” means just that, “fear”.

In this hypnotheoretical fellow, …let us assume that he is really a good guy. Goes to Mass, take holy communion, is married by the church, is a dad who does god’s Will by being the head of the household and works hard to support his family. He is generous to a fault with both his time and money for the good of others not so fortunate as he.

In other words; he lives his life under the two commandments given by Jesus…love one another as i have loved you…&…do unto others as you would have done to you

He is not a saint, just a good christian who is catholic.

So this one Sunday, he gives in: so badly he wants to go to this game…he will miss mass, but he wants to go so badly and he does. All the way there he talks to god, explaining the situation. Asks God to please understand. he knows he is doing wrong. Please please please God, forgive me this sin i am doing.

Crash!!! the man is killed

This sin of his was no blasphemy against the holy Spirit. No spurning of Christ. No kissing Satan. What he did was not fulfill his Sunday obligation. Once.

Everything can be forgiven, even some of the most evil of sins, given the opportunity to repent, even if it is a repentence of the heart. And since we do not know just what it is to die, we do not know what beyond time can allow.

Scripture is clear, only that one thing will never be forgiven . The Blood of His passion does not include that terrible sin. And if his Blood isn’t going to help, then it has to be some mighty terrible sin. Missing one mass , IMHO, isn’t that sin.

 

[johnXXIII]

I’m not a theologian or a biblical scholar, but here goes.

I am inclined to belief in the take of St. Therese of Lisieux (a doctor of the Church and therefore worthy of credence). It was her position that at, or near (whether before or after is unclear) the moment of death, everything becomes totally clear to us. We are in the presence of God, though not fully so. Every sin we have ever committed, not just the missing Mass, appears in its full panoply of ugliness, ugliness we have long denied for the most part. It is extremely painful to see with such clarity. God then offers us full forgiveness and his love, but it take an enormous humility to accept it. Yet, we know what it is, and its cost to our egos. We clearly know, at that moment, what hell is; in its fundamental nature it is self-worship forever; wrapping ourselves in the cocoon of ourselves.

We might, at that moment, but again, with full clarity, not in some flash of momentary emotion, tell God “no. I will not accept this. I know all of this, but I will not accept your judgment or your forgiveness or your love, and I hate you for doing this to me. I choose myself, now and forever.” Or we might bow before Him and admit to it all and accept the searing glow of His love and choose to love Him in return for this enormous grace.

She said that even if she had committed every sin there was to commit, she would not fear God, because she loved Him. She knew she loved Him because she acted on it. She felt, and it makes sense, that we “build” ourselves every day to be self-worshipping or God-worshipping. It’s hard to imagine anyone choosing hell, but it’s not so terribly hard to imagine anyone choosing self-love, self-justification, self-worship.

Therese had the humility to know that only acting with genuine love of God would save her, and that it would, indeed, save her because God said it would. (One must remember that love is an act of the will, not of feeling and that faith is “trust” not intellectual assent.)

The Church is not a layer of snares. “Do this and you’ll go to hell”, but a warning, a caution which God has also given us. An “other” just as God is an “other” to tell us, with love, wherein lies moral clarity; that we endanger ourselves with this or with that, and to offer, in the rather smallish terrestrial way God has allowed us, forgiveness that, really, is freely offered, not deserved, but which requires humility to approach and to accept.

Beautifully said, I agree with you, prayer is the answer. Its very difficult sinning while praying.

 

[johnXXIII]

: Forrest Gump Goes to Heaven

Is chocolate a sin?

The day finally arrived. Forrest Gump dies and goes to Heaven. He is at the Pearly Gates, met by St. Peter himself. However, the gates are closed, and Forrest approaches the gatekeeper. St. Peter said, ‘Well, Forrest, it is certainly good to see you. We have heard a lot about you. I must tell you, though, that the place is filling up fast, and we have been administering an entrance examination for everyone. The test is short, but you have to pass it before you can get into Heaven.’
Forrest responds, ‘It sure is good to be here, St. Peter, sir. But nobody ever told me about any entrance exam. I sure hope that the test ain’t too hard. Life was a big enough test as it was.’ St. Peter continued, 'Yes, I know, Forrest, but the test is only three questions.

First: What two days of the week begin with the letter T?
Second: How many seconds are there in a year?
Third: What is God’s first name?’

Forrest leaves to think the questions over. He returns the next day and sees St. Peter, who waves him up, and says, ‘Now that you have had a chance to think the questions over, tell me your answers.’ Forrest replied, ‘Well, the first one – which two days in the week begins with the letter ‘T’? Shucks, that one is easy. That would be Today and Tomorrow.’

The Saint’s eyes opened wide and he exclaimed, ‘Forrest, that is not what I was thinking, but you do have a point, and I guess I did not specify, so I will give you credit for that answer. How about the next one?’ asked St. Peter. ‘How many seconds in a year? Now that one is harder,’ replied Forrest, ‘but I thunk and thunk about that, and I guess the only answer can be twelve.’

Astounded, St. Peter said, ‘Twelve? Twelve? Forrest, how in Heaven’s name could you come up with twelve seconds in a year?’ Forrest replied, 'Shucks, there’s got to be twelve: January 2nd, February 2nd, March 2nd… ’
‘Hold it,’ interrupts St. Peter. ‘I see where you are going with this, and I see your point, though that was not quite what I had in mind…but I will have to give you credit for that one, too. Let us go on with the third and final question. Can you tell me God’s first name’? ‘Sure,’ Forrest replied, ‘it’s Andy.’ ‘Andy?’ exclaimed an exasperated and frustrated St Peter. ‘Ok, I can understand how you came up with your answers to my first two questions, but just how in the world did you come up with the name Andy as the first name of God?’

‘Shucks, that was the easiest one of all,’ Forrest replied. ‘I learnt it from the song,
ANDY WALKS WITH ME,
ANDY TALKS WITH ME,
ANDY TELLS ME I AM HIS OWN.’

St. Peter opened the Pearly Gates, and said: ‘Run, Forrest, run.’

Lord, Give me a sense of humor
Give me the ability to understand a clean joke,
To get some humor out of life,
And to pass it on to other folks

 

[Reuben_J]

: Forrest Gump Goes to Heaven

Is chocolate a sin?

The day finally arrived. Forrest Gump dies and goes to Heaven. He is at the Pearly Gates, met by St. Peter himself. However, the gates are closed, and Forrest approaches the gatekeeper. St. Peter said, ‘Well, Forrest, it is certainly good to see you. We have heard a lot about you. I must tell you, though, that the place is filling up fast, and we have been administering an entrance examination for everyone. The test is short, but you have to pass it before you can get into Heaven.’
Forrest responds, ‘It sure is good to be here, St. Peter, sir. But nobody ever told me about any entrance exam. I sure hope that the test ain’t too hard. Life was a big enough test as it was.’ St. Peter continued, 'Yes, I know, Forrest, but the test is only three questions.

First: What two days of the week begin with the letter T?
Second: How many seconds are there in a year?
Third: What is God’s first name?’

Forrest leaves to think the questions over. He returns the next day and sees St. Peter, who waves him up, and says, ‘Now that you have had a chance to think the questions over, tell me your answers.’ Forrest replied, ‘Well, the first one – which two days in the week begins with the letter ‘T’? Shucks, that one is easy. That would be Today and Tomorrow.’

The Saint’s eyes opened wide and he exclaimed, ‘Forrest, that is not what I was thinking, but you do have a point, and I guess I did not specify, so I will give you credit for that answer. How about the next one?’ asked St. Peter. ‘How many seconds in a year? Now that one is harder,’ replied Forrest, ‘but I thunk and thunk about that, and I guess the only answer can be twelve.’

Astounded, St. Peter said, ‘Twelve? Twelve? Forrest, how in Heaven’s name could you come up with twelve seconds in a year?’ Forrest replied, 'Shucks, there’s got to be twelve: January 2nd, February 2nd, March 2nd… ’
‘Hold it,’ interrupts St. Peter. ‘I see where you are going with this, and I see your point, though that was not quite what I had in mind…but I will have to give you credit for that one, too. Let us go on with the third and final question. Can you tell me God’s first name’? ‘Sure,’ Forrest replied, ‘it’s Andy.’ ‘Andy?’ exclaimed an exasperated and frustrated St Peter. ‘Ok, I can understand how you came up with your answers to my first two questions, but just how in the world did you come up with the name Andy as the first name of God?’

‘Shucks, that was the easiest one of all,’ Forrest replied. ‘I learnt it from the song,
ANDY WALKS WITH ME,
ANDY TALKS WITH ME,
ANDY TELLS ME I AM HIS OWN.’

St. Peter opened the Pearly Gates, and said: ‘Run, Forrest, run.’

I think this post and the one before it are relevant reminders to have in mind when we embark to address a thread like this. And the joke is funny but apt.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hmm. This seems to be a different answer than others I have gotten. While I still disagree with certain aspects of the Catholic mortal sin thing, at the same time your answer to my question is the one that I like the best (so far).

I don’t think my post is any different. In essence they (Catholics) said the same thing. The problem is the hypothetical scenario and they addressed it on a legal basis. I don’t think you put it up intentionally, but sometimes it can be used to trap people in a gotcha trick question.

May I also say that Protestants often like to put up question like this without taking into consideration the full spirit of Catholic teaching on the subject.

God bless you.

 

[NotTooSmart]

I don’t think my post is any different. In essence they (Catholics) said the same thing. The problem is the hypothetical scenario and they addressed it on a legal basis. I don’t think you put it up intentionally, but sometimes it can be used to trap people in a gotcha trick question.

May I also say that Protestants often like to put up question like this without taking into consideration the full spirit of Catholic teaching on the subject.

God bless you.

I don’t ask my silly questions to do gotchas.

I ask this because…

You (or some of you anyway) really make it seem that for a normal Christian the status of the eternal destiny of my soul is constantly flickering on/off/on/off…etc. And oh by the way you never know if it is on. For all we know, you might get to those pearly gates and find out you were a couple of good works short of getting in.

From some the answers I have gotten to my silly questions thus far, it would be easy for me to get this impression.

Now I suppose it is possible to have a more expansive interpretation of this full knowledge and consent stuff so that normal Christian sinning (like Peter) is not “mortal”, but if I were to read your Catechism with a very narrow interpretation (as some have done in this thread) that is what you end up with. A Christianity where the status “eternal destiny of my soul” constantly flickers from “going to hell” to going to heaven" and back. This is very objectionable to me.

But if a more expansive interpretation is possible, then (although I still have a few lesser objections) at least it is in the same ballpark as to what I believe. At least you don’t end up with something where the normal status of the eternal destiny of my sould is constantly flickering on and off.

 

[rpp]

I don’t ask my silly questions to do gotchas.

I ask this because…

You (or some of you anyway) really make it seem that for a normal Christian the status of the eternal destiny of my soul is constantly flickering on/off/on/off…etc. And oh by the way you never know if it is on. For all we know, you might get to those pearly gates and find out you were a couple of good works short of getting in.

From some the answers I have gotten to my silly questions thus far, it would be easy for me to get this impression.

Now I suppose it is possible to have a more expansive interpretation of this full knowledge and consent stuff so that normal Christian sinning (like Peter) is not “mortal”, but if I were to read your Catechism with a very narrow interpretation (as some have done in this thread) that is what you end up with. A Christianity where the status “eternal destiny of my soul” constantly flickers from “going to hell” to going to heaven" and back. This is very objectionable to me.

But if a more expansive interpretation is possible, then (although I still have a few lesser objections) at least it is in the same ballpark as to what I believe. At least you don’t end up with something where the normal status of the eternal destiny of my sould is constantly flickering on and off.

I think you are taking a too legalistic view. Or perhaps that there is some sort of mathematical formula for getting into Heaven or being damned to Hell. While we must not presume on God’s mercy, we must also realize that we do not fully understand it.

 

[johnXXIII]

I’m not a theologian or a biblical scholar, but here goes.

I am inclined to belief in the take of St. Therese of Lisieux (a doctor of the Church and therefore worthy of credence). It was her position that at, or near (whether before or after is unclear) the moment of death, everything becomes totally clear to us. We are in the presence of God, though not fully so. Every sin we have ever committed, not just the missing Mass, appears in its full panoply of ugliness, ugliness we have long denied for the most part. It is extremely painful to see with such clarity. God then offers us full forgiveness and his love, but it take an enormous humility to accept it. Yet, we know what it is, and its cost to our egos. We clearly know, at that moment, what hell is; in its fundamental nature it is self-worship forever; wrapping ourselves in the cocoon of ourselves.

We might, at that moment, but again, with full clarity, not in some flash of momentary emotion, tell God “no. I will not accept this. I know all of this, but I will not accept your judgment or your forgiveness or your love, and I hate you for doing this to me. I choose myself, now and forever.” Or we might bow before Him and admit to it all and accept the searing glow of His love and choose to love Him in return for this enormous grace.

She said that even if she had committed every sin there was to commit, she would not fear God, because she loved Him. She knew she loved Him because she acted on it. She felt, and it makes sense, that we “build” ourselves every day to be self-worshipping or God-worshipping. It’s hard to imagine anyone choosing hell, but it’s not so terribly hard to imagine anyone choosing self-love, self-justification, self-worship.

Therese had the humility to know that only acting with genuine love of God would save her, and that it would, indeed, save her because God said it would. (One must remember that love is an act of the will, not of feeling and that faith is “trust” not intellectual assent.)

The Church is not a layer of snares. “Do this and you’ll go to hell”, but a warning, a caution which God has also given us. An “other” just as God is an “other” to tell us, with love, wherein lies moral clarity; that we endanger ourselves with this or with that, and to offer, in the rather smallish terrestrial way God has allowed us, forgiveness that, really, is freely offered, not deserved, but which requires humility to approach and to accept.

What about the guy that wants to have a serious sin to confess in confession and commits a sin because his sins are all veniel and not mortal, like pornagraphy which is a very mortal sin, stupid question,but stupid guys do these things. These young men have a loving relationship with God, but thinks some sins are just a joke, it would seem, your views please.