Mortal sin =Serious sin =Grave sin

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underacloud said:
Moreover, “serious” is not merely a binary term. Although it can be used in such a manner, it can also be used as a gradation, as the Church implicitly understands by talking of “less serious” sins.

Interestingly, the quotes you provide generally focus on the terms “mortal” and “grave”, especially in the catechism. If we look at the relevant section in the catechism, we see these two terms used liberally, but not the term serious, expect, again, in a different sense:

“1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.”

Perhaps the issued associated with defining a word like “serious”, which has a common use meaning otherwise, is why the catechism does not use it, but prefers the more precise terms mortal and grave.
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Serious means mortal/grave (they are synonyms in Moral Theology/Ecclesiastical usage)

Less serious there refers to venial matter.

As for Catechism usage --(and by the way use it interchangably with mortal sin):

1457 According to the Church’s command, “after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year.” Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession. Children must go to the sacrament of Penance before receiving Holy Communion for the first time.

and here is the

The Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI usage for the same thing.

"304. Which sins must be confessed?

1456

All **grave sins **not yet confessed, which a careful examination of conscience brings to mind, must be brought to the sacrament of Penance. The confession of serious sins is the only ordinary way to obtain forgiveness."
 
I added this one to the post before your last one:

The Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI

"304. Which sins must be confessed?

1456

All grave sins not yet confessed, which a careful examination of conscience brings to mind, must be brought to the sacrament of Penance. The confession of serious sins is the only ordinary way to obtain forgiveness." (see also Canon Law …the term is used there too).
 
underacloud said:
Originally Posted by Bookcat View Post
“less serious matter” means matter that is not serious matter

Sorry, but this does not make sense. This is illogical. Which is why there is a problem.
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Serious matter -also called Grave matter

----------------------------------------- (a chasm between them)

Less serious matter -also called Venial matter
 
Bookcat said:
Serious matter -also called Grave matter

----------------------------------------- (a chasm between them)

Less serious matter -also called Venial matter
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To be “less serious” implies that it is, or can be, still serious to some degree.

The logical problem is thus that a venial sin is not serious, in that it is not a serious/grave/mortal sin, but it is still serious in that it is “less serious”.

Here, the term is used in both the defined Ecclesiastical sense (as you have outlined) and the common usage sense. And we have a logical contradiction.
 
underacloud said:
To be “less serious” implies that it is, or can be, still serious to some degree.

The logical problem is thus that a venial sin is not serious, in that it is not a serious/grave/mortal sin, but it is still serious in that it is “less serious”.

Here, the term is used in both the defined Ecclesiastical sense (as you have outlined) and the common usage sense. And we have a logical contradiction.
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Yes I understand the hurtle here for you. (But it is not a logical contradiction)

“Serious sin -Mortal sin- Grave sin”: are synonyms for one another.

Murder is *in itself *a: “Serious sin -Mortal sin- Grave sin” (objectively)

and

In order to commit a “Serious sin -Mortal sin- Grave sin” one needs grave matter, full knowledge and deliberate consent.

One could though substitute the words “serious matter” for "grave matter there-- it would mean the same.

Anything less than a grave (serious) matter would be then “less serious”.
*
Are there degrees of “seriousness” in venial sins?? --yes --most certainly*. They are not though called “serious” sins …one could say for example a very fully deliberate venial sin.

One could note various ways certain venial sins are going to be “more serious” than others…but they are essentially different than anything one would call a ‘serious sin’.
 
Bookcat said:
One could note various ways certain venial sins are going to be “more serious” than others…but they are essentially different than anything one would call a ‘serious sin’.
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Something cannot be “more serious” and not serious at the same time. It is a logical contradiction, brought about by an equivocation of the term “serious”.

BTW it is not at all a hurdle for me. I understand Church teaching regarding mortal sin. I am merely pointing out a problem with the use of the term serious in this regard.
 
underacloud said:
Something cannot be “more serious” and not serious at the same time. It is a logical contradiction, brought about by an equivocation of the term “serious”.
.
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Sure it can.

If I get a bad cold it is “more serious” than the little cold I had the month before 🙂
The point there was more in the other direction…is that venial sin --no matter if it a very very light one or is a fully deliberate venial sin --it any venial sin is less serious than “serious sin” (or the more common terms “grave sin”, “mortal sin”).
(of course such does not lessen that sin is …well a sin…and it is important to note for readers “1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. “Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness.””).
 
Sure, when it comes to colds, there are degrees of seriousness. Just like when it comes to venial sins, there are degrees of seriousness.

Yet also, when it comes to sins, there is a dichotomy, where sins are either serious (mortal) or not (venial).

So, venial sins can be both serious (to some degree) and not serious (not mortal).

But logically something cannot be both “a” and “not a” simultaneously.

Anyway, we’re going round in circles. I’ve raised my concern with the term “serious” and will leave it there.
 
underacloud said:
Sure, when it comes to colds, there are degrees of seriousness. Just like when it comes to venial sins, there are degrees of seriousness.

Yet also, when it comes to sins, there is a dichotomy, where sins are either serious (mortal) or not (venial).

So, venial sins can be both serious (to some degree) and not serious (not mortal).

But logically something cannot be both “a” and “not a” simultaneously.

Anyway, we’re going round in circles. I’ve raised my concern with the term “serious” and will leave it there.
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My colds point made my point that I was getting at.

Your post noted:

“Something cannot be “more serious” and not serious at the same time. It is a logical contradiction, brought about by an equivocation of the term “serious”.”

And I showed that it can be. All depends on what is meant.
Anyhow…

Your are correct that a venial sin cannot be a “serious sin”. That was my point.

The Church and moral theology uses particular terminology.

When a sin is referred to as a “serious sin” it is never meaning a venial sin. It means the same thing as the terms “grave sin” and “mortal sin”. (Hence the requirement above to confess all serious sins)

Serious sin = mortal sin
Grave sin = mortal sin
and well Mortal sin = serious sin = grave sin

They are synonyms.

I hope you have had a blessed Lords Day despite our circles 🙂

Have a restful sleep

BC
 
underacloud said:
Saying that it all depends on what is meant is exactly my point.
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In terms of what I was pointing out in the thread: What is meant by the Church and Moral Theology and Spiritual Theology --etc-- is that they are synonyms. “Serious sin” refers only that which we call also grave/mortal.

Serious sin =Mortal sin= Grave sin.
 
Bookcat said:
In terms of what I was pointing out in the thread: What is meant by the Church and Moral Theology and Spiritual Theology --etc-- is that they are synonyms. “Serious sin” refers only that which we call also grave/mortal.
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Yes.

And what I was suggesting in this thread that the term serious has other meanings and that the Church should use the terms mortal and grave as they are precise and not given to being misunderstood.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this matter.
 
underacloud said:
Yes.

And what I was suggesting in this thread that the term serious has other meanings and that the Church should use the terms mortal and grave as they are precise and not given to being misunderstood.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this matter.
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The Church does use the terms very precisely …

(though these terms are synonyms drawn from a rich history…even if the Church dropped one…someone would one find it in other past writings)

But like other things…there can always be some confusion at times.

Take care and a good Lent to you!
 
I can under “mortal sin” and “serious sin” and “grave sin” being used to mean the same thing. At the same time, I can understand “love” and “charity” being used to mean the same thing. But does this mean, “love = charity”? Love can mean different things, but charity can be used when speaking of one special thing (agape).

“Charity” - agape in Greek, caritas in Latin - does not primarily mean an act or positive sentiment; rather, it means the spiritual gift, the love of God that the Holy Spirit effuses in the human heart - Benedict XVI, Angelus, 25 September 2005

Would it not be right then to say that “charity” always means “love” while “love” does not always mean “charity”? With this thought, would it not be right to say that in some way “mortal sin” always includes “grave sin” but “grave sin” does not always mean “mortal sin” in the strict meaning?

Also, if it is true that in sexual sins it happens, in some situation, that full agreement is not fully given to a sin (see Persona Humana, X), then is not mortal sin absent, to the degree that full agreement to the sin is absent? But at the same time people might say that this or that sexual action was “grave sin”. (See Compendium, 492.) In one way what they say can be true, but maybe not in every way.

Every truth—if it really is truth—presents itself as universal, even if it is not the whole truth. - John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 27

Maybe that is all I have to say, my $0.02.
 
At the beginning, I meant to say, “I can understand “mortal sin” and “serious sin” and “grave sin” being used to mean the same thing.”

Also, Bookcat wrote, “In order to commit a “Serious sin -Mortal sin- Grave sin” one needs grave matter, full knowledge and deliberate consent.” Bookcat might be right. Still, at times people might say that you “commit a serious or mortal sin” if you do this or that, without making note of “full knowledge” or “deliberate consent” or both.

If through your own fault you miss Mass on Sunday, you are committing a serious sin. (cleansingfiredor.com/2011/03/archbishop-carlson-on-the-third-commandment/)

If you miss Mass on Sunday because you can’t be bothered, or because something has come up which you believe is more important, then even if it seems a small thing, you have committed a mortal sin. (patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2010/11/missing-mass-mortal-sin.html)

Once again, I bring to mind the words of John Paul II. “Every truth—if it really is truth—presents itself as universal, even if it is not the whole truth.”
 
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