Mortal Sin---What is "Full Knowledge"?

[Bookcat]

In other words: in some cases, the decision to not go to Mass can be a mortal sin. But generally speaking, the failure to follow through indicates that the decision was non- or only partially deliberate, and there is no need to confess it. Happily, everyone is right. Bookcat is right that such a decision can sometimes be mortal. jmcrae is right that such things generally don’t have to be confessed. Thoughtfulone’s conscience should be perfectly clear.

humm…I would not put it quite that way…

If one has full knowledge and deliberate consent…with the grave matter (such as choosing not to go to Mass that Sunday without excusing reason) then one has by definition committed a mortal sin (all things being equal).

And of course…there can be all sorts of temptations…thoughts desires etc…without even one sin.

As to the other Jimmy Akin is quite precise in what he said…so I willl leave it to readers to read his exact words…from top to bottom.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=515246&page=14

I would not take it as a “general” indicator though per se. Just as the fact that I did not murder my wife…even though I choose to do so with full knowledge and complete consent …us NOT a “general” indicator that I did not commit a mortal sin in my choice.

Each person must examine themselves sincerely to see if they have committed a mortal sin.

Having said that…often a person who is not “un-reflective” or who is quite-reflective will know at least from such examination that they have or have not made such a choice with full knowledge and deliberate consent…and they will know if it was just some temptation …

Those with scruples etc…have serious difficulties with doubt…so the confessor can help them in particular way by asking certain questions…

I certainly would encourage one not to scruple…but speak with ones confessor.

 

[Bookcat]

humm…I would not put it quite that way…

If one has full knowledge and deliberate consent…with the grave matter (such as choosing not to go to Mass that Sunday without excusing reason) then one has by definition committed a mortal sin (all things being equal).

And of course…there can be all sorts of temptations…thoughts desires etc…without even one sin.

As to the other Jimmy Akin is quite precise in what he said…so I willl leave it to readers to read his exact words…from top to bottom.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=515246&page=14

I would not take it as a “general” indicator though per se. Just as the fact that I did not murder my wife…even though I choose to do so with full knowledge and complete consent …us NOT a “general” indicator that I did not commit a mortal sin in my choice.

Each person must examine themselves sincerely to see if they have committed a mortal sin.

Having said that…often a person who is not “un-reflective” or who is quite-reflective will know at least from such examination that they have or have not made such a choice with full knowledge and deliberate consent…and they will know if it was just some temptation …

Those with scruples etc…have serious difficulties with doubt…so the confessor can help them in particular way by asking certain questions…

I certainly would encourage one not to scruple…but speak with ones confessor.

Opps…link did not work…here

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7323068&postcount=203

And I would add too (as I noted before) that it can be said that one can perhaps take as one “sign” that one did not give complete consent or have full knowledge --from the fact that you could easily done the thing one was tempted to…but did not. This is can be at times one “sign” to help one judge… if one did not have the knowledge and consent needed…

In my example though…my “made up person” very much knows they had not only grave matter…but full knowledge and deliberate consent. So in such an example where one could take it as any sign when one is in doubt…

and the emphasis one finds in some works of Moral Theology is on the fact that “one could easily” have done it. But did not. You are there to do it…one could have done it easily…but did not. The doubt comes “I was very tempted to take that diamond ring when on one was around…it was there…no one would have found out…I know I was tempted but wonder did I consent to those thoughts?..hummm…maybe …well not really…hummmm…not sure.” The fact that one could have easily done the act right there could be a sign that one did not have the deliberate consent etc.

But again…each must examine their own conscience…according to the three aspects of mortal sin…and those with scruples…are in particular need of assistance…a regular confessor.

 

[Pug]

And I would add too (as I noted before) that it can be said that one can perhaps take as one “sign” that one did not give complete consent or have full knowledge --from the fact that you could easily done the thing one was tempted to…but did not.

I might not be understanding you properly, but for me, that I did not do it when it was tempting and easily done indicates that I did have knowledge, and that is precisely why I didn’t do it, because I knew it was wrong. I think maybe I agree with you on the consent portion of your “sign”. I’ve never before tried to consider such a situation (your diamond ring example) as anything but a passing temptation, though.

 

[Bookcat]

I might not be understanding you properly, but for me, that I did not do it when it was tempting and easily done indicates that I did have knowledge, and that is precisely why I didn’t do it, because I knew it was wrong. I think maybe I agree with you on the consent portion of your “sign”. I’ve never before tried to consider such a situation (your diamond ring example) as anything but a passing temptation, though.

It was meant generally…"that it may have been a sign that one did not have full knowledge or deliberate consent…meaning not a mortal sin…in other words that from the fact that you did not do it …even though it was there and very easy to do so…can be a sign that one did not commit a mortal sin…(remember the person is not sure if they gave deliberate consent or not)

But yes I agree that in what I described in the ring thing …it would be more of a “sign of lack of complete consent”…than the knowledge thing. I was just repeating the general aspect as it has been noted in the past by moral theologians on this. I would agree too that normally if it is such a sign…it would be as you say…a sign of lack of complete consent. But there can be also a lack of knowledge as well…in the sense of lack of advertance…etc

(but as I note above…this is not in the case that I gave the general example of…for in that case there IS full k. and complete C…)

As to the “passing temptation”…yes of course…there may not be any sin it can just be passing…or not passing temptation (the kind that keeps on coming back!). Sometimes though there can be partial consent and thus venial sin…

 

[Pug]

As to the “passing temptation”…yes of course…there may not be any sin it can just be passing…or not passing temptation (the kind that keeps on coming back!). Sometimes though there can be partial consent and thus venial sin…

Indeed, venial is possible here! Also, you are right that I was probably imagining a lack of advertence in the diamond example.

I understand now what you mean about that you were talking generally, so you were listing out the general conditions of mortal sin. Thanks for the additional clarification.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

By this logic, it would then be possible to commit a mortal sin in a dream, yes? Let’s say a husband is dreaming about Angelina Jolie. She makes advances toward him, In his dream, he thinks, “I know this is wrong and that I am married, but I am going to sleep with Ms. Jolie.” That is a mortal sin because all 3 conditions were met. Even if he awakens and does not sleep with Angelina Jolie, he was determined to do so in his dream with full knowledge and complete consent, right?

 

[Pug]

By this logic, it would then be possible to commit a mortal sin in a dream, yes? Let’s say a husband is dreaming about Angelina Jolie. She makes advances toward him, In his dream, he thinks, “I know this is wrong and that I am married, but I am going to sleep with Ms. Jolie.” That is a mortal sin because all 3 conditions were met. Even if he awakens and does not sleep with Angelina Jolie, he was determined to do so in his dream with full knowledge and complete consent, right?

No. Neither can people who have been administered drugs to the point where they are not able to think sufficiently. Nor people who have a head injury and cannot collect their thoughts in a normal enough manner to think and consent. One might dream that they are fully awake and dream that they know what they are doing and dream that they are in control, but they were actually in a dream state, and not in control and not aware in the ordinary way.

If a famous woman secretly were to climb in bed with that husband and while he remained asleep somehow do whatever with him, it would not count as him having consented. It would be a crime on her part. So even with the act itself, there is still no mortal sin on the part of the sleeping husband.

 

[Bookcat]

By this logic, it would then be possible to commit a mortal sin in a dream, yes? Let’s say a husband is dreaming about Angelina Jolie. She makes advances toward him, In his dream, he thinks, “I know this is wrong and that I am married, but I am going to sleep with Ms. Jolie.” That is a mortal sin because all 3 conditions were met. Even if he awakens and does not sleep with Angelina Jolie, he was determined to do so in his dream with full knowledge and complete consent, right?

Nope.

One does not have full knowledge or full consent when one is asleep.

As Catholic Moral Theology readily recognizes.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Well, at least that’s something! I was ready to give up!

 

[Bookcat]

Well, at least that’s something! I was ready to give up!

Mortal sin requires…grave matter…full knowledge and complete consent…

again there can be all sorts of temptations…or attactions …thoughts …desires…that happen to one…without there being a mortal sin. Or for that matter ANY sin.

A person can be tempted say against the Catholic Faith…as were even some of the great Canonized Saints…but NOT give consent! (One Saint would write “Credo” I believe" in the blood she coughed up due to her sickness) and thus not commit any mortal sin…but Instead grow in the virtue of Faith!

A person can be tempted regarding contraception…or abortion…or lust…or adultery…or to reject the teachings of the Church …or murder etc…all sorts of temptation can occur to a person …and yet there not be even on single mortal sin (it only takes one of course for one to loose the state of grace and prevent one from going to communion etc…until one repents and confesses) for one does not give full consent…but rather seeks instead to conform oneself more and more to Christ…and thus increase in faith…or chastity etc…

One can grow in VIRTUE!! In Holiness!

It is very important for one to not confuse mere temptation or feelings or the persistence of thoughts etc…with consent.

Remember too:

The classic stages of temptation when we are tempted are:

1. Suggestion (the evil is proposed to us in some way) this can be quite attractive …can be thoughts that happen, ideas etc.
2. Pleasure (a kind of automatic pleasure can happen from the suggestion) this pleasure can just happen…one is not “trying to have it” not wanting it…this is just a reaction.

3…then one either consents or does not consent.

(one can either consent fully and thus engage in things willingly internally or externally …or not consent and perhaps thus grow in virtue…following Christ!)

(Now it can happen too that one begins to “partially consent” but then rejects it and thus does not give full consent.)

When one is tempted…

Some signs that one lacked consent or gave only “partial consent”:

If even though there was some instinctive pleasure …we do not want it…we are unhappy or horrified about the evil…or struggle to not be overcome …we turn to God in Prayer --these are some signs of no consent (if of course we stay in this stage…and do not later consent)

If one hesitates for a moment but then does not want to sin and so rejects it and does not give full consent (thus a fault against prudence)

If one resists but the resistance is half hearted…one does resist but it is weak or slow…but in the end one rejects it…such would seem to be half consent and thus venial

Of course if one then gives in and gives full consent…then such can be mortal…remember…partial consent or half consent is not full consent…and thus not mortal.

(Based on A Tanquery… he bases things on S. Augustine…but much of this is simply repeated in various places…for it is the basics in judging such)