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jmcrae
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This one, right here - this is what I’ve been talking about all this time. It turns out that we agree.
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ies0716
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We agree as long as that terrible feeling encompasses something more than a simple “fear of Mom finding out.” A sense of right and wrong develops over time, and I think that it exists in children and teenagers somewhat independent of the fear of worldly consequences. I think that it’s possible for someone (especially children/teenagers) to fear discovery of something that they have no idea whether it is right or wrong morally.This one, right here - this is what I’ve been talking about all this time. It turns out that we agree.
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ies0716
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From a practical perspective, I think that a practicing Catholic who attends Mass regularly and goes to confession at least once per month is going to know whether a specific sin is grave matter or not. I think the difficulty comes in with the “great uncatechized masses” who get the majority of their moral knowledge from poorly catechized parents, bland homilies, and the very anti-Catholic media. These people may know and understand that murder, adultery, and theft are wrong but may not have the moral formation to extrapolate those concepts to actions such as road rage, fornication, and downloading music illegally. Maybe they know that some authority somewhere wouldn’t like what they are doing, but they make no connection between the “law of Caesar” and the morality of the act.
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jmcrae
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Keep in mind that disobedience to parents is a grave sin against the fourth commandment, and if you’re downloading copyrighted images and music for commercial purposes, you’re committing theft - a grave sin against the seventh commandment.
Tell me, do you believe that it’s possible for an Atheist to go to Hell? Because I don’t think you have to believe in God, to be able to commit sin.
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ies0716
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Not all disobedience to parents is grave matter, nor is all theft. Taking a cookie when Mom tells him not to won’t send a child to hell. Stealing one song is a venial sin, while stealing 1000 is certainly a grave matter.
An atheist certainly can go to Hell. As people grow and mature, they grow in their ability to discern the natural law and the truth to the point where they would almost have to be willfully obstinate to continue in ways of sin. Someone who is honestly convinced that there is no God (or honestly convinced that they have no way of knowing whether God exists or not) can still to choose to lead a moral, upright life and have at least a chance at salvation. Most full-blown atheists I’ve met, however, tend to use atheism as a cover for their desire to engage in immoral acts. In that case, well, good luck.
This veers off into a different topic, but salvation of those who are not formally united to the Church is a very thorny issue with few certainties. If one isn’t in full communion with the Catholic Church and actively practicing one’s faith (and avoiding mortal sins) then salvation basically becomes a matter of hoping that God is merciful.
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jmcrae
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Right. So, it is not required that a person know that what they are doing goes against God’s law, since obviously an atheist would not believe that there is such a thing as God’s law. Simply being aware that society disapproves, is enough information.
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ies0716
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Again, I believe you are missing the mark. One can come to know the moral law independent of God, but to know the moral law requires growth in virtue and a certain degree of self-awareness and maturity. “Societal approval” is a decidedly poor bench-mark since whatever society approves of at a given time has no connection to the moral law. In Communist China, faithful Catholics are afraid of government persecution for simply going to Mass. By your logic, those faithful Catholics would be committing sin because society disapproves.
Conversely, even if your point is accurate, our modern society approves of (and even encourages) homosexuality, promiscuity, contraception, and a whole other host of evils. Modern society attempts to actively suppress the discernment of the natural law in individuals to the point that it becomes very difficult for people to discern morality without a reference to God.
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Robert_Burns
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Do you know why Martin Luther Fell? The single biggest reason was his obsession over SIN - what was or wasnt to the point where he thought everything was a SIN. I plagued him. He used to spend hours in the confessional.
Two things may help you.
1 GOD Forgives SIN when the Priest gives you absolution.
2 It is up to you to properly form your conscience.
3 You can involve GOD in the process by asking hiim in Prayer to call to your mind the SINS that have offended him.
4 Confession isnt there to condemn us - but to forgive us. Therefore you should never fear confessing a sin - you should fear avoiding confession and dying with a mortal sin on your soul.
5 EVERY Sin no matter how many in number can be forgiven in the Confessional.
6 A Priest can help you determine what is and isnt a Mortal Sin if you are unsure.
We dont need to reinvent the wheel. The Priest went to the seminary and was ordained and has the power to forgive Sins in Christs name. All you have to do is confess. Examine your conscience - take as much time to prepare for your confession as necessary - then go to Church and Confess every sin. Have the purpose of Amendment of Life - Sorrow for the sins you have commited - and do the penance given. We all are sinners as it says in Romans. Thank Adam. Jesus knew we would fall so he instituted this great sacrament. Any Catholic can overcome all Sin. Its up to us to do so.
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jmcrae
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There is no society that approves of murder, or theft, though, right? So it would be a starting place.
We aren’t talking about what it takes to become a moral theologian; we are talking about what it takes to become aware that you have done something wrong. Something that can apply to an eight-year-old, and to an atheist, as well as to an uncatechized Catholic. How would an eight year old or an uncatechized Catholic know that he had sinned and needed to go to Confession? How would an atheist know that he needed to make a formal apology?
What are the minimum signs to become aware of?
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ies0716
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Ah, but these are not simple questions. You state that you do not want to become a moral theologian, but these questions are ones for the realm of moral theology. Popes, bishops, theologians, Doctors of the Church, and very intelligent non-Catholics have fought and debated points like these for a very long time. Some (such as Fr. Feeney prior to his repentance) argue that only those who are Catholic can be saved, and thus all are judged by the strictest laws of the Church for their salvation. If it’s grave matter, then it’s a mortal sin, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Modernists, on the other hand, believe that as long as one is a “good person” in one’s own mind then one is bound for Heaven. Sure, maybe Hitler and other really “bad” people are in Hell, but no one else. There is a whole school of “enlightenment” philosophy that attempts to construct a moral code independent of God, and most of those systems get very complicated very quickly.
What is the truth of the matter? I think that for practicing Catholics a good “best practice” is to bring up any sins that are in doubt in Confession. It is also important not to be too scrupulous and to understand that our culpability is reduced in cases where we were misinformed, ignorant, or had a very immature understanding of sin. For atheists, their best bet would be to strive to know and understand the truth, which would hopefully lead them to the Catholic Church. At the end of the day, God is our ultimate judge and he will determine our culpability for our sins.
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jmcrae
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Which doesn’t answer the question, how does an eight-year-old know that he needs to go to Confession? He doesn’t know the Ten Commandments, and he doesn’t know the Code of Canon Law. He can just barely say his prayers. He’s never heard of “mortal sin” although he plays “Mortal Kombat” every day with his friends after school.
And as icing on that particular cake, our hypothetical eight-year-old has been taught to believe that “everyone is good” - and while it’s true that there is no such thing as a bad person; only bad actions, our eight-year-old doesn’t make that distinction, and nor has he ever been taught that it’s our actions that tell us who and what we are.
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DavidKays
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Hi Dane. I am Greek Orthodox and my Church does not get into specifics like the Catholic Church. We don’t talk like venial or mortal yet in my Church there is a sense that all sin no matter is disturbing to God. We do not seperate sins into categories like the Catholic Church for we believe all sin is serious and therefore can bring consequences even distastrious ones to yourself and to others and to the Church. Mortal sins in the West even though can be very serious and can bring dreadful consequences to the one who committed it can also bring dreadful consequences towards the Church and to the World. Why mortal sins are deadly are because it effects not only you but the whole Church and eventually the whole World. Venial sins while lighter in their consequences can actually be more harmful because they are more in abundance and people normally do not deal with them or repent of them. It is easier to repent of your major sins but see how you deal with your lighter ones and many usually put this off. While lighter sins or venial sins as you call them in the West usually only effect the person commitiing them can be a burdensome to God more than mortal sins because of this. You commit alot of venial sins and therefore the consequences to these sins can effect your relationships with your family, church and to the world. Even though the effect from these sins are less disturbing than a mortal sin brings about the fact that you are committing plenty of them can actually in the eyes of God become a source of grief because the consequences of these sins now I mean the ernormous amounts that are committed every day can bring dire consequences that even a mortal sin can bring. But your question is interesting to what determines what is a mortal sin and how can one determine it so and how can one avoid it as is defined in the Western Church. I am an Eastern Christian who has knowledge of the West and I will look to the East to my Church hopefully for the answers that you are searching. Let us look at 3 things that determines this search. The devil and his angels and to Judas. And to Peter. The Angels in the beginning were given incredible knowledge of God so much that 1 angel has more knowledge of God then all the Saints put together. There was no excuse for their sin. For the Angels were given this knowledge that if they sinned they will be automatically condemned with no relief of their condemnation. They will be immediately punished. This knowledge was given to them prior to their disobedience and still they sinned anyway! There was no excuse for their behaviour and sadly they were immediately punished. In this case their sin no matter what condemned them. Now let us look at Judas. The sin of Judas was mortal. Why? His sin was not one of weakness but one of malice. He knew what he was doing and therefore it was more grevious than the one Peter commited. Peter committed a mortal sin out of weakness not of malice and therefore it was less grevious. Jesus warned Judas many times beforehand by saying one of you will betray me or one of you is a devil. These words were not a condemnation but a warning to Judas. Judas don’t do this because the consequences will be so bad that I will lose you forever. The warnings to Judas were similar to the knowledge given to the Angels and even in the OT to Cain. To Cain were given these words " sin is crouching at your door, but you must learn to master it." Again a warning. But sadly Judas did not pay attention to the warnings and commited his sins. The consequences to his sins eventually led to his most serious sin of despair. Now you must understand that the sin of Judas even though was mortal could have been forgiven had he gone to Jesus. No sins no matter what they are ( I am referring to us, mankind and not the Angels ) can be forgiven. His Mercy knows no end for us. Sadly Judas thought not. However Peter’s sin even though mortal and not done malicously was not as grevious as the one Judas committed and if you remember the story that immediately after Peter committed the sin his eyes met Jesus eyes and he remembered the warnings of Jesus earlier and he began to wept. The sin which enclosed him has now lost its power over him and his healing has begun with the tears of repentance which the Orthodox call the 2nd Baptism. We call tears exceptionally better than the waters of Baptism even stronger because as one of our Church Fathers wrote " greater than baptism itself is the fountain of tears after baptism. For baptism is the washing away of evils that are in us before, but sins committed after baptism are washed away by tears. Because baptism is received in infancy, we have all defiled it, but we cleanse it anew with tears. And if God in His love for mankind had not given us tears, then few indeed would be saved." I hope this has helped you understand better what you were searching for. The Eastern Church even though does not talk like the West using Mortal or Venial does understand the grevious effects of sin and can relate to our Brothers ans Sisters of the West. God Bless! knowledge is important yes but what is more important is this. Your relationship with Jesus. If you have a great relationship with Him I suppose your sins will be greater than those who have not a relationship with Him but commit the same sins.
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