Mortal sins

[Fredricks]

Catholicism does not provide a specific list for what constitutes mortal sin. Is it open to individual interpretation of guidelines set by Catholicism? Have things that have been considered a mortal sin changed from being mortal to venial?

 

[Matt16_18]

Fredricks:

Is it open to individual interpretation of guidelines set by Catholicism?

No.**Catechism of the Catholic Church

1792** Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

 

[DeFide]

Fredricks:

Catholicism does not provide a specific list for what constitutes mortal sin. Is it open to individual interpretation of guidelines set by Catholicism? Have things that have been considered a mortal sin changed from being mortal to venial?

The Church teaches on what is objectively grave matter, but not that each sin involving grave matter is necessarily a mortal sin. This is because for sin to be mortal, it requires not just grave matter, but adequate knowledge and free consent.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?postid=672693#poststop

catholic.com/library/mortal_sin.asp

The Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[petra]

Fredricks:

Catholicism does not provide a specific list for what constitutes mortal sin. Is it open to individual interpretation of guidelines set by Catholicism? Have things that have been considered a mortal sin changed from being mortal to venial?

Yes, the Catechism does indicate what constitutes mortal sin. The commision of mortal sin requires 3 components:

1. Grave matter
2. Free will to commit the act
3. Full knowledge of the implications of committing the act.

Only if all 3 conditions are met, does someone risk losing their salvation.

petra

 

[Fredricks]

The Church teaches on what is objectively grave

matter, but not that each sin involving grave matter is necessarily a mortal sin. This is because for sin to be mortal, it requires not just grave matter, but adequate knowledge and free consent.
Where do you find a list of what is objectively grave?
I understand that you are saying that someone must have adequate knowledge and consent.
Has what the Catholic church taught is objectively grave changed?

 

[DeFide]

Fredricks:

Where do you find a list of what is objectively grave?
I understand that you are saying that someone must have adequate knowledge and consent.
Has what the Catholic church taught is objectively grave changed?

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm#III

Further, if you search the Catechism on given subjects, you can see that some sins involve objectively grave matter. This does not change.

Just be sure that for each sin, you know why grave matter is involved. For example, a Catholic missing mass on Sunday should understand that he is neglecting the worship of God and disregarding legitimate Church authority, and the matter is not focused on being a little slothful.

 

[Matt16_18]

Fredricks:

Where do you find a list of what is objectively grave?

Why do you need such a list? If one commit a mortal sin, one should repent of that sin and go to confession.

Do you have a specific sin in mind that you are wondering if it involves grave matter? Let’s narrow down the scope of your question and see what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches.

Has what the Catholic church taught is objectively grave changed?

No. The Catholic Church does not ever change her moral teachings, because moral truth does not change from generation to generation. The Catholic Church is not a reed that is blown about by the wind.

 

[petra]

Fredricks:

Where do you find a list of what is objectively grave?
I understand that you are saying that someone must have adequate knowledge and consent.
Has what the Catholic church taught is objectively grave changed?

It may be useful to understand that we can sin in one of 2 ways: we can sin morally or we can sin against the authority of Christ, which is administered as disciplines through the Church.

Moral standards can never change. It is always wrong to steal, kill, lie, slander, disrespect our parents, put our own will above God’s, etc. Sins against morality sometimes may only be venial if they do not rise to a level of severity. Driving 5 mph over the speed limit may only be venial. Driving recklessly and endangering others is a grave matter.

However, disciplines may be changed (such as celibacy of priests), but our obligation to submit to disciplines does not change. So a mortal sin may be committed if someone deliberately disregards a discipline.

Men who are already Catholic and wish to become a priest must remain celibate because of a long-standing Church discipline. But married orthodox priests are allowed to become Catholics priests if they convert, and they can also remain married. If a Catholic, knowing that he wanted to become a priest but also wanted to be married, converted to Orthodoxy, got married, and then reverted to Catholicism, that would be a grave matter—not because being a priest and being married is morally sinful, but because it is a grave sin against the authority of the Church that was established by Christ.

Disciplines do change on occasion, and when they do, our obligation may change. This does not mean that the nature of what constitutes grave matter changes, though.

Hope this helps.

 

[Joe_Gloor]

Fredricks:

Catholicism does not provide a specific list for what constitutes mortal sin. Is it open to individual interpretation of guidelines set by Catholicism? Have things that have been considered a mortal sin changed from being mortal to venial?

What’s your point Mr. Fredricks?
Does Protestantism have such a list?
Ordinarily, Protestants criticize the Catholic Church for being overly legalistic. Are you looking for more evidence of that?
God will judge our sins and our repentence for the same.
And He will judge your Faith, I expect - since you believe that Faith alone will save you.
Is there a definition of how much Faith is required for Salvation in the Protestant churches?
Can any man say his faith is perfect?

Matthew 17:20
He replied, “Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

Is everything possible for you?

 

[Fredricks]

What’s your point Mr. Fredricks?

To understand what Catholicism teaches about losing your salvation.

Does Protestantism have such a list?

We only use the Bible.

Ordinarily, Protestants criticize the Catholic Church for being overly legalistic

In matters of salvation, I concur.

. Are you looking for more evidence of that?

No but thanks for the idea.

God will judge our sins and our repentence for the same.

we agree

And He will judge your Faith, I expect - since you believe that Faith alone will save you.

I never said I was OSAS and never said I wasnt

Is there a definition of how much Faith is required for Salvation in the Protestant churches?

The Bible contains all we need

Can any man say his faith is perfect?

They can say it sure, they would be deluded.

Is everything possible for you?

Scripture teaches that it is but I always viewed that rather symbolically, moving mountains etc.

 

[Fredricks]

Why do you need such a list? If one commit a mortal sin, one should repent of that sin and go to confession.

I am ascertaining how Catholics view losing their salvation.

Do you have a specific sin in mind that you are wondering if it involves grave matter? Let’s narrow down the scope of your question and see what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches.

Specific, no.

 

[Fredricks]

petra:

It may be useful to understand that we can sin in one of 2 ways: we can sin morally or we can sin against the authority of Christ, which is administered as disciplines through the Church.

Moral standards can never change. It is always wrong to steal, kill, lie, slander, disrespect our parents, put our own will above God’s, etc. Sins against morality sometimes may only be venial if they do not rise to a level of severity. Driving 5 mph over the speed limit may only be venial. Driving recklessly and endangering others is a grave matter.

However, disciplines may be changed (such as celibacy of priests), but our obligation to submit to disciplines does not change. So a mortal sin may be committed if someone deliberately disregards a discipline.

Men who are already Catholic and wish to become a priest must remain celibate because of a long-standing Church discipline. But married orthodox priests are allowed to become Catholics priests if they convert, and they can also remain married. If a Catholic, knowing that he wanted to become a priest but also wanted to be married, converted to Orthodoxy, got married, and then reverted to Catholicism, that would be a grave matter—not because being a priest and being married is morally sinful, but because it is a grave sin against the authority of the Church that was established by Christ.

Disciplines do change on occasion, and when they do, our obligation may change. This does not mean that the nature of what constitutes grave matter changes, though.

Hope this helps.

It is helpful.
Are venial sins open to personal interpretation then?

 

[Joe_Gloor]

Fredricks:

To understand what Catholicism teaches about losing your salvation.

Here and I thought it was a test.

Fredricks:

We only use the Bible.

But not Leviticus?

Fredricks:

I never said I was OSAS and never said I wasnt

Yes, you are very cryptic.
You appear to enjoy poking holes in Catholic beliefs and yet you won’t state your own beliefs - except in generalities like…

Fredricks:

The Bible contains all we need.

And when I ask if everything is possible for you, you replied:

Scripture teaches that it is but I always viewed that rather symbolically, moving mountains etc.

So based on these responses I’m guessing that you have Faith the size of a mustard seed - although you really have no reliable evidence in that regard.

 

[petra]

Fredricks:

It is helpful.
Are venial sins open to personal interpretation then?

Well, any sin, regardless of its gravity, is an offense to our Holy God. So objectively, it is not a matter of personal interpretation.

However, the formation of our conscience takes some time, and new Christians may not be aware that something is sinful, when objectively it is. But our ignorance can’t be used as an excuse forever. We also have an obligation to learn about our faith and what God’s will is.

In short, no, we don’t get to decide on our own what is sin and what is not sin.

 

[mnmom]

Fredricks, maybe you want an understanding about Sacred Tradition and your just beating around the bush to get an answer. Col 2:8 is referring to traditions of men and is not referring to Sacred Tradition. There is a diffrence. See 2 Thess. 2:15 and 1 Cor. 11:20. The bible itself tells us to hold fast to Tradition, whether in written or oral form. Anyone with more knowledge than myself may be able to explain this better

 

[Matt16_18]

Fredricks:

I am ascertaining how Catholics view losing their salvation.

Any man that is damned to spend eternity in the lake of fire is damned because he committed mortal sin and persisted in unrepentance to the end of his life. **Catechism of the Catholic Church

1037** God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.

---

There is sin which is mortal … there is sin which is not mortal.
1John 5:16 -17

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."
Rev 21:8

…nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their immorality or their thefts.
Rev. 9:21

Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cor. 6:9-10

Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal. 5:19-21

For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.
Heb 6:4-6

For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.
Heb 10:26-27

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.
2Pet 2: 20-22

 

[Joe_Gloor]

mnmom:

Fredricks, maybe you want an understanding about Sacred Tradition and your just beating around the bush to get an answer. Col 2:8 is referring to traditions of men and is not referring to Sacred Tradition. There is a diffrence. See 2 Thess. 2:15 and 1 Cor. 11:20. The bible itself tells us to hold fast to Tradition, whether in written or oral form. Anyone with more knowledge than myself may be able to explain this better

Oh don’t get Fredricks started on Sacred Tradition, he’ll never finish! See the FOUNDATIONS thread - he never finished…

 

[Fredricks]

But not Leviticus?

Of course the book of Leviticus is inspired. We also know what part of the law applies to us Gentiles because of the Acts 15.
Protestants and Catholics agree on this point

You appear to enjoy poking holes in Catholic beliefs and yet you won’t state your own beliefs - except in generalities like…

I have not poked any holes in this thread. That would be other threads.

And when I ask if everything is possible for you, you replied:

So based on these responses I’m guessing that you have Faith the size of a mustard seed - although you really have no reliable evidence in that regard.

I have no idea what you mean. The Bible teaches that all things are possible through Christ. This I am sure we agree on…never mind. I am asking not arguing. I am not going to debate Joe. Nice try.

 

[Fredricks]

Joe Gloor:

Oh don’t get Fredricks started on Sacred Tradition, he’ll never finish! See the FOUNDATIONS thread - he never finished…

It achieved its purpose. I am very pleased.
I am going to post Sola Scripture but other threads needed a more immediate response.

 

[Fredricks]

QUOTE=petra]Well, any sin, regardless of its gravity, is an offense to our Holy God. So objectively, it is not a matter of personal interpretation.

Is the line between venial and grave interpretative?

However, the formation of our conscience takes some time, and new Christians may not be aware that something is sinful, when objectively it is. But our ignorance can’t be used as an excuse forever. We also have an obligation to learn about our faith and what God’s will is.

Amen.