R
Redratfish
Guest
I am debating with someone over whether there is such a thing as mortal sin. He is asking me how to determine whether something is seriously wrong. How should I answer him?
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Totterman
Guest
Jesus,our Lords peace be whit You.
All You need to do is read to him/her from The Holy Bible Matt.12:30-32. The truth comes from the Gospels who tell us what Jesus said,and where His love and truth is,there He is. Pray,and The Holy Spirit will give You the words needed to be said.
Blessings,
Totterman
All You need to do is read to him/her from The Holy Bible Matt.12:30-32. The truth comes from the Gospels who tell us what Jesus said,and where His love and truth is,there He is. Pray,and The Holy Spirit will give You the words needed to be said.
Blessings,
Totterman
D
DebChris
Guest
One way to address the issue is to use the analogy of the broken window.
Which is a more serious infraction?
Children are playing baseball and the ball flies through a window.
A person choosing to cause damage throws a ball through the window.
In both cases, the window is broken. In the first case there is no malice of forethought.
In civil court there are different penalties for different crimes. Should we not consider the same to hold true when it comes to sin?
Which is a more serious infraction?
Children are playing baseball and the ball flies through a window.
A person choosing to cause damage throws a ball through the window.
In both cases, the window is broken. In the first case there is no malice of forethought.
In civil court there are different penalties for different crimes. Should we not consider the same to hold true when it comes to sin?
M
mdgspencer
Guest
The Bible speaks of mortal sin in the first epistle of John 5:16-17.
J
JRKH
Guest
Your friend does not believe there is such a thing as “mortal sin”?
I would begin by discussing what it means for something to be “mortal”. Ask Him what it means to be “Mortally wounded”? Basically it means the same thing as being “Fatally wounded”, in other words death. And what are the “wages of sin”? Yup - Death (Romans 6:23). Totterman has pointed out that there is at least one sin that is deadly, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. (Mt 12:30-32) So that takes care of whether there is such a thing as “mortal sin”.
So then your friend wants to know how to determine if something is “seriously wrong” (Grave matter).
The Church teaches that deliberate sins against the 10 commandments constitute grave matter. I certainly see nothing wrong in this explanation except that, to me, it does not get to the heart of the matter of what makes something deadly sin (Mortal).
In Mt 22:36-40 Christ tells us that the two great commandments, the ones that are foundational to everything else are these:
Mt 22:36-40 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, "
So what does it mean to Love someone with ALL of your heart, soul and mind? Ponder on that for minute. If you love someone in this way, do you wish to harm them or go against them or upset them or make them sad in any way, ever?
Of course not…
Does that mean that you won’t occasionally hurt them inadvertently, or without thinking it through or whatever? Again, of course not.
But what happens when you realize you’ve hurt this Love of your life? Do you not feel terrible? Do you not run to them and seek their forgiveness? Are you not willing to do anything you can to make it up to them?
Now consider what it means if you are willing to deliberately hurt this person you claim to Love. What is the first condition for this willingness? Would it not be that you must stop Loving them with your whole heart, mind and soul? You choose instead to place your love of self ahead of your love for them and do things that you know will hurt them, make them sad etc, either to a) deliberately hurt them, or b) because you don’t care that it hurts them.
This deliberately and knowingly turning your back on God is the Root of all “mortal sin” for it “blasphemes the Holy Spirit”. It places you above God. It denies God’s sovereignty and salvic plan in your life.
So - Yes, deliberate sin against the 10 commandments is certainly grave matter, NOT so much becuase it is an action against some “rule”, but because it is “deliberate”. It violates the “Law (and commands) of Love” as given by God Himself and clarified by Jesus in Mt 22:36-40.
Now - to try and tie this back into the Church’s teachings. The CCC says that Mortal sin requires 3 components. Grave matter, Full knowledge, and Full consent of the will. Frankly I would have listed these in a different order - Full knowledge, Full consent of the will, and Grave matter. I say this because, if you have full knowledge that something is a sin, and you fully and consciously choose to do it anyway, it is a grave matter because it denies your Full Love and devotion to God.
Certainly swiping a pen is not the same as embezzling funds or robbing a bank, inb so far as it’s gravity and relationship to Loving our neighbor, but both, if done with full knowlege and consent are serious offenses against Love of God.
Finally, I would try to help your fiend to understand taht, if we seek to not offend God in small ways, it is unlikely we will be seriously temped to do so in big ways. Then we don’t have to worry about judging what is “serious” and what is not.
I hope some of this is helpful to you.
Peace
James
I would begin by discussing what it means for something to be “mortal”. Ask Him what it means to be “Mortally wounded”? Basically it means the same thing as being “Fatally wounded”, in other words death. And what are the “wages of sin”? Yup - Death (Romans 6:23). Totterman has pointed out that there is at least one sin that is deadly, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. (Mt 12:30-32) So that takes care of whether there is such a thing as “mortal sin”.
So then your friend wants to know how to determine if something is “seriously wrong” (Grave matter).
The Church teaches that deliberate sins against the 10 commandments constitute grave matter. I certainly see nothing wrong in this explanation except that, to me, it does not get to the heart of the matter of what makes something deadly sin (Mortal).
In Mt 22:36-40 Christ tells us that the two great commandments, the ones that are foundational to everything else are these:
Mt 22:36-40 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, "
YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. 40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”So what does it mean to Love someone with ALL of your heart, soul and mind? Ponder on that for minute. If you love someone in this way, do you wish to harm them or go against them or upset them or make them sad in any way, ever?
Of course not…
Does that mean that you won’t occasionally hurt them inadvertently, or without thinking it through or whatever? Again, of course not.
But what happens when you realize you’ve hurt this Love of your life? Do you not feel terrible? Do you not run to them and seek their forgiveness? Are you not willing to do anything you can to make it up to them?
Now consider what it means if you are willing to deliberately hurt this person you claim to Love. What is the first condition for this willingness? Would it not be that you must stop Loving them with your whole heart, mind and soul? You choose instead to place your love of self ahead of your love for them and do things that you know will hurt them, make them sad etc, either to a) deliberately hurt them, or b) because you don’t care that it hurts them.
This deliberately and knowingly turning your back on God is the Root of all “mortal sin” for it “blasphemes the Holy Spirit”. It places you above God. It denies God’s sovereignty and salvic plan in your life.
So - Yes, deliberate sin against the 10 commandments is certainly grave matter, NOT so much becuase it is an action against some “rule”, but because it is “deliberate”. It violates the “Law (and commands) of Love” as given by God Himself and clarified by Jesus in Mt 22:36-40.
Now - to try and tie this back into the Church’s teachings. The CCC says that Mortal sin requires 3 components. Grave matter, Full knowledge, and Full consent of the will. Frankly I would have listed these in a different order - Full knowledge, Full consent of the will, and Grave matter. I say this because, if you have full knowledge that something is a sin, and you fully and consciously choose to do it anyway, it is a grave matter because it denies your Full Love and devotion to God.
Certainly swiping a pen is not the same as embezzling funds or robbing a bank, inb so far as it’s gravity and relationship to Loving our neighbor, but both, if done with full knowlege and consent are serious offenses against Love of God.
Finally, I would try to help your fiend to understand taht, if we seek to not offend God in small ways, it is unlikely we will be seriously temped to do so in big ways. Then we don’t have to worry about judging what is “serious” and what is not.
I hope some of this is helpful to you.
Peace
James
M
Mijoy2
Guest
I hold perhaps a position that is not popular amongst most individuals in these forums.
I do not suggest there is no such thing as mortal sin. To do so would be to not follow the teachings of the church which one cannot do and claim to be catholic assuming they understanding the catholic teaching of the authority of the churh.
So yes, there is mortal (deadly) sin. Can we determine if a sin is mortal or not? Yes and no. I once had a friar tell me “if you committed a mortal sin you would know it”. I believe he meant if one commits a sin, with no remorse for doing so, fully understands he is committing grave matter and -does not care- he committed a mortal sin.
The level of -does not care- comes into play. “Full consent” is ambiguous at best.
What does it mean to consent fully? If i commit a sin through temptation and weakness, I go ahead with this sin honestly feeling badly about going ahead with it, desiring the temptation would leave, desiring the strength to stop, yet through my weakness I proceed, did I fully consent?
I’m not posing this looking for an answer. There are as many answers as there are catholics. I pose this response because I feel the answer to the question of what constitutes a mortal sin cannot be accurately answered by us.
Which also begs the follow-up question, “is the catholic church relevatisic in this matter”? a position She usually stands against (relevatism).
This is probably the biggest sticking point in my faith. One I know will never be adequetly answered. Ask 100 catholics get 101 answers.
I do not suggest there is no such thing as mortal sin. To do so would be to not follow the teachings of the church which one cannot do and claim to be catholic assuming they understanding the catholic teaching of the authority of the churh.
So yes, there is mortal (deadly) sin. Can we determine if a sin is mortal or not? Yes and no. I once had a friar tell me “if you committed a mortal sin you would know it”. I believe he meant if one commits a sin, with no remorse for doing so, fully understands he is committing grave matter and -does not care- he committed a mortal sin.
The level of -does not care- comes into play. “Full consent” is ambiguous at best.
What does it mean to consent fully? If i commit a sin through temptation and weakness, I go ahead with this sin honestly feeling badly about going ahead with it, desiring the temptation would leave, desiring the strength to stop, yet through my weakness I proceed, did I fully consent?
I’m not posing this looking for an answer. There are as many answers as there are catholics. I pose this response because I feel the answer to the question of what constitutes a mortal sin cannot be accurately answered by us.
Which also begs the follow-up question, “is the catholic church relevatisic in this matter”? a position She usually stands against (relevatism).
This is probably the biggest sticking point in my faith. One I know will never be adequetly answered. Ask 100 catholics get 101 answers.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1874
One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.
1875
One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.
More in the Catechism…
- When does one commit a mortal sin?
1874
One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.
- When does one commit a venial sin?
1875
One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.
More in the Catechism…
B
Bookcat
Guest
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm#III
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131
1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.
1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm#III
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131
1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.
1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134
J
JRKH
Guest
Mijoy2,I hold perhaps a position that is not popular amongst most individuals in these forums.
I do not suggest there is no such thing as mortal sin. To do so would be to not follow the teachings of the church which one cannot do and claim to be catholic assuming they understanding the catholic teaching of the authority of the churh.
So yes, there is mortal (deadly) sin. Can we determine if a sin is mortal or not? Yes and no. I once had a friar tell me “if you committed a mortal sin you would know it”. I believe he meant if one commits a sin, with no remorse for doing so, fully understands he is committing grave matter and -does not care- he committed a mortal sin.
The level of -does not care- comes into play. “Full consent” is ambiguous at best.
What does it mean to consent fully? If i commit a sin through temptation and weakness, I go ahead with this sin honestly feeling badly about going ahead with it, desiring the temptation would leave, desiring the strength to stop, yet through my weakness I proceed, did I fully consent?
I’m not posing this looking for an answer. There are as many answers as there are catholics. I pose this response because I feel the answer to the question of what constitutes a mortal sin cannot be accurately answered by us.
Which also begs the follow-up question, “is the catholic church relevatisic in this matter”? a position She usually stands against (relevatism).
This is probably the biggest sticking point in my faith. One I know will never be adequetly answered. Ask 100 catholics get 101 answers.
Some good points in what you write.
People, like the OP’s friend, seem to want solid black and white lines drawn out for them. This is a very legalistic view and, to my way of thinking is looking down and trying to “avoid hell”, while dancing on a precipice, rather than looking up and trying to please God and running from the precipice into His Loving Arms…
In my own search for the answer I arrived at the conclusion that, consciously or unconsciously the root of a sin being mortal is Not Loving God with our whole heart soul and being…Deadly sin (mortal) flows from that.
Peace
James
C
Cachonga
Guest
It seems obvious to me that when you look at Matt 12:30-32 (“He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” RSV) and 1 John 5:16-17 (“If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. ** All wrongdoing is sin**, but there is sin which is not mortal.” RSV emphasis mine), it’s clear that the “mortal” sin is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. As for “other” sins, I think James 1:13-15 (“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.” RSV) makes it clear that all unrepented sin leads to death.
Pax!
Pax!
N
NoAvailableName
Guest
Given that the passage from Matthew talks about sin that will never be forgiven, and Catholics believe there is forgiveness for mortal sins, I don’t understand why Catholics believe the doctrine of mortal sin is supported by that passage.Jesus,our Lords peace be whit You.
All You need to do is read to him/her from The Holy Bible Matt.12:30-32. The truth comes from the Gospels who tell us what Jesus said,and where His love and truth is,there He is. Pray,and The Holy Spirit will give You the words needed to be said.
Blessings,
Totterman
M
Mijoy2
Guest
The sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.Given that the passage from Matthew talks about sin that will never be forgiven, and Catholics believe there is forgiveness for mortal sins, I don’t understand why Catholics believe the doctrine of mortal sin is supported by that passage.
My understanding of this sin is the refusal to ask for forgiveness, or the refusal to accept forgiveness.
Actually indirectly I think you just pointed to the Catholic teaching on Mortal Sin. You descibe the instance of ‘full consent’. Refusing to admit one is doing wrong when one knows one is doing wrong. And one knows through the graces of the Holy Spirit.
When one refuses these graces, one sins against the Holy Spirit. Amazing
Thanks.
N
NoAvailableName
Guest
I don’t see anything in the Catechism that references Matt 12:30-32 in regards to mortal and venial sins. I think 1 John 5:16-17 is what the catechism is trying to reference, although it says 1 John 16-17. I think it is a long stretch to get from either verse to mortal and venial sins.The sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
My understanding of this sin is the refusal to ask for forgiveness, or the refusal to accept forgiveness.
Actually indirectly I think you just pointed to the Catholic teaching on Mortal Sin. You descibe the instance of ‘full consent’. Refusing to admit one is doing wrong when one knows one is doing wrong. And one knows through the graces of the Holy Spirit.
When one refuses these graces, one sins against the Holy Spirit. Amazing
Thanks.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM#$21K
D
DebChris
Guest
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is described as the one sin that cannot be forgiven.
The Catholic Church speaks of the sins of Despair and Presumption. The sin of Despair fails to accept the forgiveness that God has to offer. “My sin is so terrible that God will never forgive me.” The sin of Presumption is the opposite. God will automatically forgive me. It is a sin of pride that denies any repercussions as a result of the sin committed. Presumption and Despair are sins against hope (CCC 2090-2092)
Any mortal sin, once confessed with a contrite heart, can be forgiven through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. A mortal sin is one in which we knowing turn from God, doing that which we know to be evil. More often than not we unintentionally hurt one another and ourselves. This is venial sin.
Conversion, which is a continual process, requires first acknowledging our sinfulness, repenting of the sins we have committed. It means accepting the grace of forgiveness that God has for each of us.
The Catholic Church speaks of the sins of Despair and Presumption. The sin of Despair fails to accept the forgiveness that God has to offer. “My sin is so terrible that God will never forgive me.” The sin of Presumption is the opposite. God will automatically forgive me. It is a sin of pride that denies any repercussions as a result of the sin committed. Presumption and Despair are sins against hope (CCC 2090-2092)
Any mortal sin, once confessed with a contrite heart, can be forgiven through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. A mortal sin is one in which we knowing turn from God, doing that which we know to be evil. More often than not we unintentionally hurt one another and ourselves. This is venial sin.
Conversion, which is a continual process, requires first acknowledging our sinfulness, repenting of the sins we have committed. It means accepting the grace of forgiveness that God has for each of us.
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