Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion

  • Thread starter Thread starter bkovacs
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I thought he was trying to make a funny.
I don’t know how anyone could make a comment like that seriously.
Rather than being so dismissive, could any of the EOs here take a moment to detail (and please don’t just make stuff up) how, when, and why:

Εἰς μίαν, Ἁγίαν, Καθολικὴν καὶ Ἀποστολικὴν Ἐκκλησίαν.

became:

Во едину Святую, Соборную и Апостольскую Церковь
 
In all seriousness, after all the uproar adding the filioque to the Creed caused does anyone really think the Russian Church could remove something as central from the Creed and no one in the Orthodox would would notice? 🤷
Have you noticed Old Believers?
 
Rather than being so dismissive, could any of the EOs here take a moment to detail (and please don’t just make stuff up) how, when, and why:

Εἰς μίαν, Ἁγίαν, Καθολικὴν καὶ Ἀποστολικὴν Ἐκκλησίαν.

became:

Во едину Святую, Соборную и Апостольскую Церковь
Соборную = Καθολικὴν

What is the problem? You don’t speak Russian?
 
Great post and fascinating insights, Kyiv, thanks!
Constantine, you may also want to note that in the link to the article by the aforesaid Russian Orthodox Metropolitan he calls our Eastern Catholic Churches “a complete failure”, but in the context of being a vehicle for unity (which we have long ago disavowed anyway). As Cardinal Husar long ago pointed out: this excuse that Ukrainian Catholics are THE reason for Moscow not engaging Rome is pretty well a lame excuse, or something to that effect. O.K. Met. Hilarion also uses a term banned on CAF to describe our Church.

In any event, I would take what this particular Russian Orthodox Metropolitan says with a heavy, heavy grain of salt, as, from what I read elsewhere by the late Venerable JPII’s biographer George Weigel, this same Russian Orthodox ecumenist astoundingly approves Stalin’s liquidation of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in 1946, the KGB enforced pseudo-synod that murdered in cold blood our bishops and clergy and sent many to the Gulag.

As here:
‘More disturbing still were remarks made in Washington in February by Metropolitan Hilarion, the Moscow patriarchate’s “external affairs” officer—Russian Orthodoxy’s chief ecumenist. Hilarion is an impressive personality in many ways: He is entirely at home in English, he displays a nice sense of humor, and his curriculum vitae includes a large number of publications and musical compositions. Yet when I asked him whether the L’viv Sobor (Council) of 1946—which forcibly reincorporated the Greek Catholic Church of Ukraine into Russian Orthodoxy, turning the Greek Catholics into the world’s largest illegal religious body—was a “theologically legitimate ecclesial act,” Hilarion unhesitatingly responded “Yes.” I then noted that serious historians describe the L’viv Sobor as an act of the Stalinist state, carried out by the NKVD (predecessor to the KGB); Hilarion responded that the “modalities” of history are always complicated. In any event, he continued, it was always legitimate for straying members of the Russian Orthodox flock (as he regarded the Ukrainian Greek Catholics) to return to their true home (i.e., Russian Orthodoxy)’

firstthings.com/onthesquare/2011/03/rome-and-moscow

Some ecumenist for us. It is Lent and there is no point at least in arguing here but I believe we should know exactly what the object of this thread in Eastern Catholicism actually believes about Eastern Catholics, namely us. It also pays to know that those parts of Ukraine on which the Ukrainian Catholic Church existed before Stalin annexed them in his alliance with Hitler in 1939 never historically belonged to Tsarist Russia, nor the Soviet Union until 1939 and then 1945. (And Mr. Weigel makes a mistake here too in using the word “reincorporation” into the Russian Orthodox Church as the Church in Transcarpathia, Halychyna, even when Orthodox, never belonged to the Russian Orthodox Church or Moscow, so “reincorporation” is wrong).

A rather ironic view now that we are supposed to be celebrating the enthronement of a new Patriarch for the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

If the subject of this thread is Rome and Moscow, and the belief that Eastern Catholics are a failure, then it doesn’t belong under Eastern Catholicism obviously but non-Catholic religions imho.
 
A post in Cyrillic, how helpful! 😃
This is not only wrong, this is so obviously wrong that I feel kind of bad for you. I realize that maybe you can’t read Russian or type in Russian, but five-second search (literally, five seconds) on the Russian search engine “Yandex” brought up the full text, and “Catholic” is CLEARLY there:

Веруем во единаго Бога Отца, Вседержителя, Творца всех видимых и не видимых. И во единаго Господа Иисуса Христа, Сына Божия, единороднаго, рожденнаго от Отца, то есть, из сущности Отца, Бога от Бога, Света от Света, Бога истинна от Бога истинна, рожденна, не сотворенна, единосущна Отцу, имже вся быша, яже на небеси и на земли: нас ради человек и нашаго ради спасения сшедшаго, и воплатившася и вочеловечшася, страдавша, и воскресшаго в третий день, и возшедшаго на небеса, и седяща одесную Отца, и паки грядущаго судити живым и мертвым. И во Святаго Духа. Глаголющих же о Сыне Божием, яко бысть время, егда не бе, или яко прежде неже родитися, не бе, или яко от не сущих бысть, или из иныя ипостаси или сущности глаголющих быти, или превратима или изменяема Сына Божия, сих анафематствует кафолическая и апостольская Церковь.

The large, bold, underlined word is “Catholic”.

To Malphono: The modern equivalent (descendant, really) of the KGB is called the FSB.
 
Hahaha. I started learning Russian when I was 19, Gurney…about 4 years before I became Catholic, and 7 years before I ever step into an Arabic class. Clearly it’s RUSSIAN FIRST, then everything else! :D:p
 
Dude, I think that is positively FABULOUS that you learned those. I am fully bilingual in Spanish. I have a Spanish bilingual credential on top of my BA in education and regular credential to teach K-8 Elementary. I do know some Tagalog, a little Chinese, and some Thai (although boy that is rusty!). I visited those countries. My wife, being filipina, helps a lot. I think Russian is a VERY cool language, Arabic as well. I’d love to learn both! We have a lot in common. If we can get you playing the guitar fluently and liking marvel comics, we’ll be cloned LOL
Hahaha. I started learning Russian when I was 19, Gurney…about 4 years before I became Catholic, and 7 years before I ever step into an Arabic class. Clearly it’s RUSSIAN FIRST, then everything else! :D:p
 
Okay. Can you tell me what you mean by that? I’d like to read whatever sources you have in mind.
 
сих анафематствует кафолическая и апостольская Церковь.

The large, bold, underlined word is “Catholic”.

To Malphono: The modern equivalent (descendant, really) of the KGB is called the FSB.
Dzheremi, as to your quote above, I believe what it says is “anathematizes the Catholic and Apostolic Church” in Russian. Not sure where your link is from. The correct part of the Symbol of Faith is “и во единую святую, соборно-вселенскую и апостольскую Церковь” in Russian I believe but I note the Mod. on Eastern Catholic Forums has asked us to not post in foreign languages, or at least render a translation. “Cоборнa” translates as Catholic in Ukrainian and Russian.

And as for the Russian Secret Police, the FSB, that for me is the sad part. Some converts to Orthodoxy from Protestantism or other “western” faiths engage themselves quite readily into Ukrainian Catholic/Russian Orthodox polemics without any “firsthand” experience. Stories of Ukrainian Catholic nuns, helpless nuns, being raped and tortured after the synod which Metropolitan Hilarion approves in the lead article may seem from another world. Not of course that family is required obviously but to be lectured about it as a Ukrainian Catholic on a Catholic Forum seems somewhat, I don’t know, at least strange, but I’m trying to be honest.

And yes the Orthodox did suffer too. But then why does the modern Russian Orthodox Church still carry on blessing and praising the secret police at the old headquarters of the KGB, now the FSB, the bloody Lubyanka in Moscow, the place thousands of Christian faithful, Orthodox and Catholics, were tortured, and no condemnation? I am talking this century not last. Why doesn’t the Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kirill say anything of Putin defending Lenin’s prominent mausoleum staying just where it is in Moscow. Where was the outrage when the former mayor of Moscow Luzhkov proposed placing a statue of the founder of the Soviet Secret Police Dzherzhinsky in Moscow, so Putin would be happy. And why was an honest Russian Catholic priest like Gleb Yakunin, imprisoned by the Soviets, when today’s MP visited the West during Soviet times, also excommunicated by the Russian Orthodox Church after the Soviet collapse?

Interestingly, I just watched a heart-wrenching documentary on the repressive means used in Belarus by the dictator Lukashenka when the poor people there protested for human rights and dignity. When Lukashenka won, Moscow’s Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kirill praised the butcher. (Interestingly, the Belarus’ protesters had posters of Filaret of the Kyivan Patriarchate and not Kirill). Things we take for granted in the West - freedom of assembly, speech - are crushed in Putin’s Russia, Lukashenka’s Belarus, and now Yanukovych’s Ukraine. The Secret Police is working overtime in these states and the three of these, in my opinion egregious, leaders have the support of the leadership of the Russian Orthodox Church (there are many good priests of course). All moves towards human rights and rule of law are quite literally dismissed as the work of the CIA.

And this bothers me, as a Ukrainian, though it may not bother someone as much with no familial connection to the homeland, except for Catholic/Orthodox polemics in the West to provide the emotion. Just my opinion, and I feel uncomfortable anyway overly engaging in such polemics in Lent.
 
Dude, I think that is positively FABULOUS that you learned those. I am fully bilingual in Spanish. I have a Spanish bilingual credential on top of my BA in education and regular credential to teach K-8 Elementary. I do know some Tagalog, a little Chinese, and some Thai (although boy that is rusty!). I visited those countries. My wife, being filipina, helps a lot. I think Russian is a VERY cool language, Arabic as well. I’d love to learn both! We have a lot in common. If we can get you playing the guitar fluently and liking marvel comics, we’ll be cloned LOL
Well, now that you mention it, I started picking up the guitar around age 12, and still play occasionally (had to put it down for a few years in college and have been slow picking it back up, but it’s all just muscle memory anyway)…Spanish I’m sure I’ve talked about enough before…yeah, there are a lot of commonalities…
 
Dzheremi, as to your quote above, I believe what it says is “anathematizes the Catholic and Apostolic Church” in Russian. Not sure where your link is from. The correct part of the Symbol of Faith is “и во единую святую, соборно-вселенскую и апостольскую Церковь” in Russian
Yes. I must apologize for having scanned it a bit too quickly. I read the first few lines, saw that it seemed to be what I was looking for, and did not parse the entire text because I figured it was all there. It appears to be an earlier version of the creed, as dvdjs notes. I typed in “Никейский символ веры” and took the first link that seemed appropriate. My apologies.
“Cоборнa” translates as Catholic in Ukrainian and Russian.
Indeed it does. Now tell dvdjs that!

The rest of your post is sad and disconcerting beyond belief. God rest ALL Christians in Russia, Ukraine, and all of the ex-Soviet territories. I believe that polemical discussions hurt us when they obscure our common humanity, including the ways otherwise disagreeing people have suffered in kind in terrible conditions. Among my old Russian professors were not just Orthodox, but also Catholics and Jews, and some of the stories they told me about the times under Stalin and even later…well…it makes me thank God that I myself did not live under such things, and admire even more those who did.
 
and a correction to my post above. Father Gleb Yakunin is, was, a Russian Orthodox, not Catholic, priest whom I much admire. He was imprisoned by the Soviet regime for his faith, while the current Moscow Patriarch rose through the ranks of the church during the Soviet Union. Ironically, after the Soviet Union collapsed, father Gleb Yakunin was excommunicated by the same Russian Orthodox Church for asking what exactly the hierarchs like today’s MP did for the KGB whilst he was in the Gulag. I wish someone like Gleb Yakunin could be the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top