Moses, Elijah, The Transfiguration

[maloner]

At the Transfiguration of Jesus, Moses and Elijah appeared with Him.
Given that these two men had been dead for centuries and, because the gates of heaven had not yet been opened through the Resurrection, where did Moses and Elijah come from ?
Does anyone have any idea ?

 

[total_Catholic]

Ancient Jewish tradition has that after Moses died, God buried him in an unknown grave, although Deuteronomy says this as well, and he did this to prevent Israel from turning his grave into a site for idolatry.

Satan, IIRC, went to molest the dead corpse of Moses but was thwarted by St.Michael the Archangel(see the book of Jude)and then Moses was assumed into Heaven.

Elijah of course was assumed according to Holy Scripture. Seventh Day Adventists, who believe in soul sleep and that all the dead in fact are dead until the last day, claim the Transfiguration was just a vision because Jesus said “tell the vision to no man”.

There are ancient works that would prove otherwise. Hope that helps.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Moses

 

[alphomega]

All things are possible through God.

I love the symmetry. Consider this from Fr. Barron:

At the Transfiguration, Moses was there representing the law and Elijah was there representing the prophets. But why were Peter, James, and John present? And what does this event mean to us today?

St. Thomas Aquinas devotes an entire section in his Summa theologiae to this event. His treatment sums up much of the wisdom of the Fathers, so looking at his reflections may give us some answers.

Aquinas says that it was fitting that Christ be manifested in his glory because those who are walking an arduous path need a clear sense of the goal of their journey. The arduous path is this life, with all of its attendant sufferings, failures, setbacks, disappointments, and injustices, and its goal is heavenly glory, fullness of life with God, the transformation of our bodies.

As he makes his way toward the cross, Jesus accordingly allows, for a brief time, his glory to shine through, the radiance of his divinity to appear. We are not meant finally for this world. This event is meant to awaken our sense of wonder at the world to come.

Next, Aquinas asks about the “light” or the “glory” that envelops Christ during the Transfiguration. It “shines.” Why have people, trans-historically and trans-culturally, associated holiness with light? Well, light is that by which we see, that which illumines and clarifies. But at bottom it is the fact that light is beautiful. Beautiful things shine. Aquinas says that Jesus, at the Transfiguration, began to shine with the radiance of heaven so as to entrance us with the prospect of our own transfiguration.

Finally, Aquinas talks about the witnesses to the Transfiguration, namely Peter, James, John, Moses, and Elijah. Moses stands for the Law. Jesus recapitulates, perfects, and illumines the Mosaic law: “I have come not to abolish the law but to fulfill it.” Christ is the new Moses, the new Lawgiver.

Similarly, Elijah stands for the prophets; he was the greatest of the prophets. The prophets spoke the words of God; Jesus is the Word of God. Therefore, the prophetic books are read in his light.

But why is Peter there? Because, says Aquinas, he loved the Lord the most. Why is John there? Because the Lord loved him the most. Why is James there? Because he was the first of the Apostles to die for his faith.

Who gets access to the glory of Jesus? Those who are tied to him through love.

“Therefore it was fitting that He should show his disciples the glory of his clarity to which he will configure those who are his.”

• St. Thomas Aquinas

 

[OurLadysServant]

I’ve researched this!

All who died before Jesus death, after purgatory went to Limbo, (called in the Bible “Abraham’s Bosom”).
It was supposedly according to the private revelation of saints such as St John Bosco, a very beautiful peaceful place -like an earthly heaven. Adam and Eve would have been their and all the prophets.

In the apostles creed when we say Jesus descended into hell, we mean, He chained satan, and then delivered a big number of soul from purgatory and went to limbo to preach to the souls awaiting their Savour to open the Gates of Heaven

At the Transfiguration of Jesus, Moses and Elijah appeared with Him.
Given that these two men had been dead for centuries and, because the gates of heaven had not yet been opened through the Resurrection, where did Moses and Elijah come from ?
Does anyone have any idea ?

 

[alphomega]

I’ve researched this!

All who died before Jesus death, after purgatory went to Limbo, (called in the Bible “Abraham’s Bosom”).
It was supposedly according to the private revelation of saints such as St John Bosco, a very beautiful peaceful place -like an earthly heaven. Adam and Eve would have been their and all the prophets.

In the apostles creed when we say Jesus descended into hell, we mean, He chained satan, and then delivered a big number of soul from purgatory and went to limbo to preach to the souls awaiting their Savour to open the Gates of Heaven

Need some clarification please.

Are you suggesting God couldn’t call up anyone he wanted at any time.

 

[jmj777]

Need some clarification please.

Are you suggesting God couldn’t call up anyone he wanted at any time.

God can do ALL things. However, God decided that because the gates of Heaven were closed due to the fall of Adam and Eve, Jesus would come to suffer, die and resurrect from the dead in order to OPEN the gates of Heaven. It was God’s divine providence. Moses and Elijah were in the place of waiting where the souls of the just were.

Peace.

+JMJ+

 

[alphomega]

Not trying to hard headed just trying to understand.

The OP was asking where Elijah and Mosses came from. I’m saying God willed it. Are we in the same camp or is there another avenue to explore?

 

[oliver927]

God can do ALL things.

Absolutely!

Moses and Elijah were in the place of waiting where the souls of the just were.

No. Elijah was in Heaven. The bible very clearly tells us this.

2 Kings 2:11 says “As they walked on still conversing, a fiery chariot and fiery horses came between the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind”

I see no reason why God could not have also taken Moses if he wanted.

 

[thistle]

Absolutely!

No. Elijah was in Heaven. The bible very clearly tells us this.

2 Kings 2:11 says “As they walked on still conversing, a fiery chariot and fiery horses came between the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind”

I see no reason why God could not have also taken Moses if he wanted.

Not the Heaven (beatific vision) the Church teaches about. The Church teaches that after the death and resurrection of Christ he opened the gates of Heaven. They were closed to all before that. The Church does not teach exceptions were made.

 

[oliver927]

The Church does not teach exceptions were made.

The Church teaches that all humans are subject to original sin and yet God made an exception for Mary. I think this definitively proves God can and did make exceptions to what all other humans have available to them.

Apparently Pope St John Paul II acknowledged exceptions were made. Source: Jimmy Akin’s article “Yes, Enoch and Elijah went to heaven” posted on 03 March 15 in which he cites General Audience, July 21, 1999. It is at the end of the article.

 

[catholictiger]

At the Transfiguration of Jesus, Moses and Elijah appeared with Him.
Given that these two men had been dead for centuries and, because the gates of heaven had not yet been opened through the Resurrection, where did Moses and Elijah come from ?
Does anyone have any idea ?

Simple even though the general ressurection of the dead has yet to occur God has given special grace to certain individuals who are miraculous examples of holiness. We as Catholics believe the Mary is currently assumed Body and soul into haven, where she is, how this happens is beyond our intellectual ability to understand, but our faith tells us that she is.

I would suspect the same goes for Moses and Elisha.

 

[catholictiger]

Not the Heaven (beatific vision) the Church teaches about. The Church teaches that after the death and resurrection of Christ he opened the gates of Heaven. They were closed to all before that. The Church does not teach exceptions were made.

not even for Mary?

I think the transfiguration is CLEARLY is a glimpse of the beatific vision. Peter James and John (I think) actually saw the beatific vision, while this isn’t official Catholic teaching, I think the passage points to this reality. Of course they couldn’t dwell with it and because of their sin they didn’t fully understand it, but Christ was actually transformed (transfigured) into the beatific vision or his body was the glorified body that they would see after the resurrection.

Also the Apostles got a glimpse of the beatific vision when Christ came to visit them after his resurrection, or at-least they saw what it would be like when they too are resurrected.

Unless you can point to official Catholic Teaching that says Mary isn’t experiencing now the beatific vision, than I find it hard to believe that Mary isn’t also experiencing the beatific vision as the first to experience after Christ.

 

[irenaeuslyons]

Augustine and Aquinas and Ephraim suggest the heaven they went to was not the eternal heaven but rather to Paradise not unlike the Garden of Eden where you could still enjoy the beatific vision of God. Both are heaven in a sense, because both put you face to face with God.

 

[thistle]

not even for Mary?

I think the transfiguration is CLEARLY is a glimpse of the beatific vision. Peter James and John (I think) actually saw the beatific vision, while this isn’t official Catholic teaching, I think the passage points to this reality. Of course they couldn’t dwell with it and because of their sin they didn’t fully understand it, but Christ was actually transformed (transfigured) into the beatific vision or his body was the glorified body that they would see after the resurrection.

Also the Apostles got a glimpse of the beatific vision when Christ came to visit them after his resurrection, or at-least they saw what it would be like when they too are resurrected.

Unless you can point to official Catholic Teaching that says Mary isn’t experiencing now the beatific vision, than I find it hard to believe that Mary isn’t also experiencing the beatific vision as the first to experience after Christ.

In case you had forgotten Mary was assumed after Christ opened the gates of Heaven.

I don’t agree with you about the Transfiguration and as you point out it is not Church teaching but purely your personal opinion.

 

[catholictiger]

In case you had forgotten Mary was assumed after Christ opened the gates of Heaven.

I don’t agree with you about the Transfiguration and as you point out it is not Church teaching but purely your personal opinion.

ok you are correct.

but why do you disagree with my point?

Christ is transfigured into a clearly glorified body, especially if you pay attention to the parallels with revelation. What else would they be seeing?

Note: the Church speaks dogmatically on almost no specific passages of scripture, it is left open to interpretation, rather the Church takes all of divine revelation and from that teaches the truth. There are very few passages that you can point to dogmatic statements on these certain passages. The transfiguration is one of them.

Ratzinger in his book entitled Jesus of Nazareth makes it clear that Jesus transfiguration has many parallels to heavenly beings in revelation, who are clothed in white, faces shine like the sun. The Apostles are seeing how Christ will look at the resurrection of the body, what we will behold in heaven. We will see Christ like the Apostles saw in the upper room, like they saw on the mount of transfiguration. Maybe there is more to the beatific vision, but from my reading and my own research of this topic, it seems clear to me they are seeing a vision of heaven. What else would it be?

 

[catholictiger]

to add to my point here is Ratzinger’s actual words. He obviously isn’t speaking with papal authority here, and he doesn’t specifically mention the beatific vision. But I think it is very logical to connect the glory of God’s Kingdom to the beatific vision.

Rudolf Pesch has convincingly argued that the placing of this saying immediately before the Transfiguration clearly relates it to this event. Some- that is to say, the three disciples who accompany Jesus up the mountain- are promised that they will personally witness the coming of the Kingdom of God “in power.” On the mountain the three of them see the glory of God’s Kingdom shining out of Jesus. On the mountain they are overshadowed by God’s holy cloud.

C.F. page 317

for background refer to Mark 9:1.

If they see the glory of God’s Kingdom, what could they possibly be seeing that isn’t a glimpse of the beatific vision?

 

[thistle]

to add to my point here is Ratzinger’s actual words. He obviously isn’t speaking with papal authority here, and he doesn’t specifically mention the beatific vision. But I think it is very logical to connect the glory of God’s Kingdom to the beatific vision.

C.F. page 317

for background refer to Mark 9:1.

If they see the glory of God’s Kingdom, what could they possibly be seeing that isn’t a glimpse of the beatific vision?

I stick with what the Church teaches (which it does with the authority of God) and it teaches that the gates of Heaven were closed until Christ opened them after his death and resurrection. It does not teach the gates were closed apart from being opened for Elijah and Enoch. Therefore I do not have to speculate on this issue.

 

[catholictiger]

I stick with what the Church teaches (which it does with the authority of God) and it teaches that the gates of Heaven were closed until Christ opened them after his death and resurrection. It does not teach the gates were closed apart from being opened for Elijah and Enoch. Therefore I do not have to speculate on this issue.

but scripture teaches that Jesus was transfigured and he was seen with Moses and Elisha. You have to at-least speculate about where they possibly could be living if they can’t be in heaven.

I never said they were in heaven what I said is that the Apostles get a glimpse of the beatific vision.

The Church has not spoke authoritatively on where Moses and Elisha were, what the Apostles saw at the transfiguration. I understand what you are saying but your, the Church said so, so I’m not saying anything is no more than just a cop out. Moses and Elisha had to be somewhere but where?

The Apostles likely saw a glimpse of the beatific vision. What does that mean for Moses and Elisha I don’t know.

But again you are using one Catholic teaching that only slightly relates to this passage as an excuse to not give your opinion on the matter.

I gave mine.

Jesus has a glorified body, the Apostles are seeing a glimpse of the beatific vision. I don’t know what that implies for Moses and Elisha though.

 

[catholictiger]

you are being to binding thistle. I think someone has already posted this but it isn’t impossible for God to give the graces from Christ’s resurrections to someone early.

We actually see this in Mary in two ways. 1) we are all destined to have original sin, but Mary was given a special grace, a grace that had yet to be given to man kind early. 2) She was assumed Body and Soul into heaven, the thing is that the general resurrection of the dead doesn’t come till after Christ’s second coming, so Mary is give a special grace (an exception) to the general rule for all believers.

Another possibility would be to say they were taken up but to a different kind of heaven than the one Christ opened. Or it is possible to say simply that they received entrance to heaven as a grace which came from the redemption Christ wrought – only they received it early, as did Mary when she was immaculately conceived. Like Mary, Enoch and Elijah may have been foretastes of the good things to come. In such a case, they would be exceptions to the rule. But God can do what he wants.

catholic.com/quickquestions/was-elijah-assumed-into-heaven-before-mary

It isn’t out of the realm of possibility that Moses and Elisha received the grace “early.”

Yes I understand that the gates are closed before the resurrection, but is God bound by that? Obviously no.

Also you can’t ignore the nature of this story. It is clear that Moses and Elisha both have resurrected bodies so to speak. It isn’t clear if they also have glorified bodies but I think you could assume that.

 

[thistle]

you are being to binding thistle. I think someone has already posted this but it isn’t impossible for God to give the graces from Christ’s resurrections to someone early.

We actually see this in Mary in two ways. 1) we are all destined to have original sin, but Mary was given a special grace, a grace that had yet to be given to man kind early. 2) She was assumed Body and Soul into heaven, the thing is that the general resurrection of the dead doesn’t come till after Christ’s second coming, so Mary is give a special grace (an exception) to the general rule for all believers.

catholic.com/quickquestions/was-elijah-assumed-into-heaven-before-mary

It isn’t out of the realm of possibility that Moses and Elisha received the grace “early.”

Yes I understand that the gates are closed before the resurrection, but is God bound by that? Obviously no.

Also you can’t ignore the nature of this story. It is clear that Moses and Elisha both have resurrected bodies so to speak. It isn’t clear if they also have glorified bodies but I think you could assume that.

Let me repeat my position. I accept what the Church teaches on this matter and therefore do not need to speculate on it.
The Church teaches that the gates of Heaven were closed before the death and resurrection of Christ who opened the gates. That clearly means that wherever Elijah, Enoch or Moses went it was not Heaven.

The Church teaching:

CCC 637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.