Moses, Elijah, The Transfiguration

[oliver927]

wherever Elijah, Enoch or Moses went it was not Heaven.

Can you explain what 2 Kings 2:11 “…Elijah went up to heaven…” and what 1 Maccabees 2:58 “Elijah, for his burning zeal for the law, was taken up to heaven”
means if not that he went to heaven?

 

[thistle]

Can you explain what 2 Kings 2:11 “…Elijah went up to heaven…” and what 1 Maccabees 2:58 “Elijah, for his burning zeal for the law, was taken up to heaven”
means if not that he went to heaven?

I don’t have to explain anything. The Church teaching is absolutely clear on this matter. Do you want me to quote the Church teaching again?

 

[oliver927]

I don’t have to explain anything.

Classic response of not being able to argue against a point.

The Church teaching is absolutely clear on this matter.

The two Bible verses I referenced also seem to be absolutely clear. This is why I asked what you think they mean. They must mean something other then what the plain text says if Elijah did not go to heaven.

 

[catholictiger]

I don’t have to explain anything. The Church teaching is absolutely clear on this matter. Do you want me to quote the Church teaching again?

I would like you to quote where it says where Elisha and Moses went.

I haven’t seen it yet.

 

[catholictiger]

let me post this again

Or it is possible to say simply that they received entrance to heaven as a grace which came from the redemption Christ wrought – only they received it early, as did Mary when she was immaculately conceived. Like Mary, Enoch and Elijah may have been foretastes of the good things to come. In such a case, they would be exceptions to the rule. But God can do what he wants.

maybe Catholic.com is getting it wrong and we aren’t allowed to hold this view.

But you are tying to bind people to an interpretation which they are not bound to. God can make exceptions to the rules he is God. You are using human teaching yes divinely inspired to say that God can’t do something. Again it is very possible that Moses and Elisha received a grace that we couldn’t receive till after his death and resurrection. Grace is not bound by time, it could very well be applied to someone before Christ died and rose.

We actually see this happen in the history of salvation. The grace that allowed Mary to be free from original sin was from Christ’s saving act on the cross applied before hand.

 

[thistle]

Classic response of not being able to argue against a point.

The two Bible verses I referenced also seem to be absolutely clear. This is why I asked what you think they mean. They must mean something other then what the plain text says if Elijah did not go to heaven.

You don’t seem to get it. If a passage in Scripture is or may be open to different interpretations you look to what the Church actually teaches for the answer. I gave you the answer. I did not give you an interpretation.
Are you saying the Church teaching on this matter is wrong??

CCC 637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.

 

[catholictiger]

You don’t seem to get it. If a passage in Scripture is or may be open to different interpretations you look to what the Church actually teaches for the answer. I gave you the answer. I did not give you an interpretation.
Are you saying the Church teaching on this matter is wrong??

CCC 637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.

I think your main problem is that you are thinking about this temporally.

Jesus opened the gates of heaven in 33AD meaning anyone who died before that couldn’t possibly go to heaven.

The problem is grace is not bound by time. How do we know this? By Mary, the grace that merited Mary being exempt from original sin happened temporally when Christ died on the cross. God is not bound by time so God can apply grace to someone from a future event.

Mary was concieved immaculately, the grace God gave her was merited on the cross, how is this possible? God isn’t bond by time.

What the Church teaches is that it is through the act of Christ opening the gates of heaven that we are able to enter in. That doesn’t necessitate that only after it happened in earthly time people can enter. God very well could either take Moses and Elisha out of time, or maybe apply a future grace to the past. There are a whole host of possibilities, but it is through the merit of Christ’s death and resurrection that they are able to enter heaven. NONE of us disagree with that.

I’ve done enough trying to explain this.

 

[MtnDwellar]

I think that we are getting into trouble by combining human time with spiritual events. Moses and Elijah are saints in heaven and therefore not restricted by human time.

Padre Pio prayed for his grandfather to have a peaceful death long after his grandfather died.

 

[catholictiger]

Jimmy Akin does a good job explaining it

catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/yes-enoch-and-elijah-went-to-heaven

he even quotes JPII

The depiction of heaven as the transcendent dwelling-place of the living God is joined with that of the place to which believers, through grace, can also ascend, as we see in the Old Testament accounts of Enoch (cf. Gn 5:24) and Elijah (cf. 2 Kgs 2:11)

 

[oliver927]

If a passage in Scripture is or may be open to different interpretations you look to what the Church actually teaches for the answer.

What is the different interpretation in this case? Two verses say Elijah went to heaven. What other interpretation is there?

 

[thistle]

What is the different interpretation in this case? Two verses say Elijah went to heaven. What other interpretation is there?

The Heaven mentioned there is not the Beatific Vision. It is the Limbo of the Fathers.

How often do I have to quote what the Church teaches instead of everyone giving their private opinions. The Church teaching trumps everyone’s opinion.

CCC 637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.

Note the part I highlighted. That is the Church teaching. It does not teach he opened Heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him, apart from those to whom exceptions had been made!!!

 

[oliver927]

The Heaven mentioned there is not the Beatific Vision. It is the Limbo of the Fathers.

Thank you for the different interpretation. Now we can have a discussion about it.

I find this argument just as convincing as when some people say Jesus did not turn water into wine at the wedding at cana but he turned it into grape juice (which is to say, not convincing). The text does not seem to support it. In the Apostles’ Creed we say “he descended into hell”, which is Jesus descending, or going down, to the Limbo of the Fathers or the Bosom of Abraham. In the two verses pointed out we see Elijah going up. It makes no sense for Elijah to go up to the Limbo of the Fathers when it is always being depicted as down. Also in the Apostles’ Creed we say “he ascended into heaven”. Again we have heaven being depicted as up since Jesus ascended there.

I think catholictiger made a great point when he said “Mary was concieved immaculately, the grace God gave her was merited on the cross, how is this possible? God isn’t bond by time.” (bolding added) Thistle, you are constraining God to our human understanding of time, which of course he is not constrained by. God created what we know as time and I am sure the is alot more to it then our current understanding. When I say there was an “exception” or they received grace “early” it is just a human language attempt to explain what the Bible tells us happened. No human on earth can comprehend everything about God but we do have his word given to us in the Bible and it tells us Elijah went to heaven, seemingly before Jesus opened the gates. I do not buy that it was actually the Limbo of the Fathers, especially when someone like Pope Saint John Paul II did not hold that opinion, also pointed out by catholictiger.

Before you post CCC 637 again let me say this, I do not disagree with what it says, it is Church teaching. But Church teaching is comes from Scripture and Sacred Tradition so they will not contradict each other.

 

[irenaeuslyons]

The Heaven mentioned there is not the Beatific Vision. It is the Limbo of the Fathers.

How often do I have to quote what the Church teaches instead of everyone giving their private opinions. The Church teaching trumps everyone’s opinion.

CCC 637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.

Note the part I highlighted. That is the Church teaching. It does not teach he opened Heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him, apart from those to whom exceptions had been made!!!

Heaven must have the Beatific Vision or it is not Heaven.

Since you are equating limbo patrum with heaven, why don’t you read this first. newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

Theologians distinguish four meanings of the term hell:

1. Hell (infernus of the damned) in the strict sense, or the place of punishment for the damned, be they demons or men;
2. Limbo of infants (limbus parvulorum), where those who die in original sin alone, and without personal mortal sin, are confined and undergo some kind of punishment;
3. Limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum), in which the souls of the just who died before Christ awaited their admission to heaven; for in the meantime heaven was closed against them in punishment for the sin of Adam;
4. Purgatory, where the just, who die in venial sin or who still owe a debt of temporal punishment for sin, are cleansed by suffering before their admission to heaven.

None of those are Heaven, because in Heaven there is no separation from God. Those four meanings of hell all have one thing in common… separation from the Beatific Vision of God.

 

[catholictiger]

The Heaven mentioned there is not the Beatific Vision.

How often do I have to quote what the Church teaches instead of everyone giving their private opinions. The Church teaching trumps everyone’s opinion.

CCC 637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.

Note the part I highlighted. That is the Church teaching. It does not teach he opened Heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him, apart from those to whom exceptions had been made!!!

The Church doesn’t give their opinion on this passage.

My view holds that the grace of the opening of the gates of heaven comes from Christ. It is possible to hold that Moses and Elisha could have been given that grace early, just like Mary was given the grace of forgiveness of original sin early, from Christ passion death and resurrection.

You are apply Church teaching where it shouldn’t be applied. None of us are arguing against Church teaching, rather some of us are arguing that in this case the Church hasn’t definitively interpreted the meaning of Moses and Elisha being taken up, and conversing with the Transfigured Jesus. IT doesn’t in anyway go against Church teaching to hold that God gave them an early grace so they could enter heaven.

It is the Limbo of the Fathers.

at-least at first glance the problem with this interpretation is that, if the limbo of the fathers refers to the righteousness waiting for the coming of Christ, than there is a problem. That is where the majority of people are before Christ comes, but Moses and Elisha are mentioned to be taken up into heaven, that makes it impossible for them to be in the same place of the righteous waiting for their redemption.

 

[catholictiger]

another point

Jimmy Akin

one or two Catholic Answer Apologist

Even JPII hints that Moses and Elisha going into heaven early is a possbility.

Note: JPII doesn’t really say that but he doesn’t speak with the same, no it must be this way as Thistle is talking

The depiction of heaven as the transcendent dwelling-place of the living God is joined with that of the place to which believers, through grace, can also ascend, as we see in the Old Testament accounts of Enoch (cf. Gn 5:24) and Elijah (cf. 2 Kgs 2:11)

Thistle are you going to ignore all of these things I’m quoting? I even quote JPII, whose authority goes beyond that of the Catechism. He had a major hand in it, don’t you think one of the greatest popes in the history of the Church would understand Catholic Teaching. It would appear Jimmy’s reading of JPII contradicts what the CCC says, in your opinion.

 

[catholictiger]

You don’t seem to get it. If a passage in Scripture is or may be open to different interpretations you look to what the Church actually teaches for the answer. I gave you the answer. I did not give you an interpretation.

This is now how the Church approaches Scripture.

Let me explain real quick.

1. there is very little the Church teaches about specific passages in the scriptures. Does the Church give an opinion on Genesis 1 and 2, how we are to make sense of the two creation accounts? No. How about Herem warfare, that style of warfare which calls for the slaughter of innocent human beings? No, she is silent, at-least on how to interpret it. Benedict XVI gave guidelines on how to handle dark passages.
2. You are trying to limit scripture to one interpretation, which is a protestant move. There are many passages in scripture that can be interpreted in two or more ways. Isaiah’s prophacy of the young women (virigin) is that a prophecy of an ending war or the coming of the Messiah? Yes.
3. If you try to limit scripture to one interpretation you are actually limiting divine inspiration. Are you saying that the spirit couldn’t inspire multiple literal meanings?

The way we should approach scripture, it look into the historical context, the genera the Author intended to write in, other passages of scripture, the scripture as a whole, what does the original language suggest, etc.

You can’t just go running to the Church every time you find different interpretations of one scripture, because the Church likely hasn’t said a thing about it, at-least not authoritatively.

This is one passage where you trying to bind people to one interpretation is not the intention of the Church. There is a reason why the Church is silent on the location on Moses and Elisha before the coming of Christ, because 1) we don’t know and 2) there is no need for the Church to speak authoritatively on those passages.

 

[alphomega]

I’ve been following this thread with some amusement and frustration.

It’s not a question of if it happened It happened!!! It’s in the Gospels Luke 9-28, Mt 17-1, Mk 9-2, and the luminous mystery of the rosary put there by ST. John Paul the great.

Trying to figure out how is an exercise in futility.

It’s like showing a globe to a dog. You see the world …the dog see’s a play toy.

All things are possible through GOD.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

At the Transfiguration of Jesus, Moses and Elijah appeared with Him.

When ever the law and the prophets are mentioned together, I always try and search how they may hang and depend on the greatest commandments. Could it be that Jesus was there to represent the greatest commandments, do they fulfil the law?

 

[OurLadysServant]

God sent those saints to appear to jesus from limbo

Limbo is where the souls of unbaptized babies go

According to the catechism this is also where the souls (who werent in purgatory) waited before Jesus opened Heaven at His death.

 

[oliver927]

I came across this in another thread and thought it may add something to this conversation.

CCC 1257 “The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation … God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.”

Here we see in Church teaching that God is not bound to what we are bound to. We humans need baptism for salvation but there is nothing stopping God from making an “exception” to this rule.

Now if God “is not bound by his sacraments” why would he be bound to the timeline of human events? To me this seems to at the very least permit the possibility that Elijah received the grace necessary for entry into heaven “early”.