Moses & Jesus

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Tom shaikh, sister Amy is quite right. The masjad e aqsa was built after the time of Hazrat Umar. If that is the dome of the rock then we muslims never prayed towards it. But there was sacred Jewish temple in Jeroshlem. Initially, all the Muslims in Makkah were praying towards that Jewish temple (which was no more there).

The reason was that the world spiritual leadership was with the Jews (The children of Jacob). The holy prophet was preaching and later had to migrate to Madinah under duress. There the holy prophet had enough chance to preach to the Jews too. But they rejected him as they had rejected Jesus too.

Finally, it was revealed to the holy prophet that the spiritual leadership of the world had been taken away from the Jewish people and it was entrusted to the Muslims. Then in the year 2 A.H. the Qiblah (center of prayers) was changed from Jeroshlem to Ka’abah in Makkah.

But I have to add that about the last few words of sister as far as the Muslims are concerned. The Jews and the christians may be believing that Abraham went to the mount to sacrifice his son Issac. But Muslims do not believe that at all.
 
planten said:
…

Initially, all the Muslims in Makkah were praying towards that Jewish temple (which was no more there).

…

Finally, it was revealed to the holy prophet that the spiritual leadership of the world had been taken away from the Jewish people and it was entrusted to the Muslims. Then in the year 2 A.H. the Qiblah (center of prayers) was changed from Jeroshlem to Ka’abah in Makkah.
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Ah, an abrogation… We thought that Allah being God could see the future, but alas, he failed on this one.
 
tomshaikh said:
And i think that’s not right thing to make image and pretent that he is God.

correct.

A statue or picture to a Christian is like a photo you have of your family…you may kiss it or even talk to it (if you are away from your family for example), but this does not mean it is God…a statue or photo represents something/someone, but is NOT someone.

When Muhammad kissed what is merely a black stone, do you consider it wrong? no, because the stone represented something to Muhammad…same principle.
Please Explain and Provide the meaning of POLYTHEISM?
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Reuben_J said:
Ah, an abrogation… We thought that Allah being God could see the future, but alas, he failed on this one.
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** No abrogation. There was no revealed order in the Quran to face to Jeroshlem. The holy prophet had the habit to follow the old revealed scripture that was with the Jews. He simply followed the old order. There was no order to him in the Quran to do that.

If there is any such thing please show that order in the Quran to face to Jeroshlem. There is none. So no abrogation. Thanks. And God does not forget. But he makes the old messages (the old scriptures) to be abrogated and makes them to be forgotten.

We also always read the latest additions of any books. Don’t we?? So the latest book of orders from God is the Quran now. Believe it or not. It is upto you.**
 
planten said:
** No abrogation. There was no revealed order in the Quran to face to Jeroshlem. The holy prophet had the habit to follow the old revealed scripture that was with the Jews. He simply followed the old order. There was no order to him in the Quran to do that.

If there is any such thing please show that order in the Quran to face to Jeroshlem. There is none. So no abrogation. Thanks. And God does not forget. But he makes the old messages (the old scriptures) to be abrogated and makes them to be forgotten.

We also always read the latest additions of any books. Don’t we?? So the latest book of orders from God is the Quran now. Believe it or not. It is upto you.**
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What you just described, Planten, might be what Reuben J meant when he said: “An abrogation.”
 
Lapell said:
What you just described, Planten, might be what Reuben J meant when he said: “An abrogation.”
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No. What he implied was that there is an abrogation in Quran, at least about the change of Qiblah. That was his understanding and it could be any ones misunderstanding. I have shown that there was no order to face to Jeroshlem so no abrogation.
 
** It is necessary to come to the topic. We know that the real person in Judaism is Moses. He was a law bearing prophet of God. After that, all the Israeli prophets who followed Moses were to support the samelaw. They were all under the command of Moses. That is including Jesus who was the last of all those Israeli prophets. They were all from Allah.Jesus was the last amongst them. But still he was under Moses. Not superior to Moses.
It is a different thing (story and a bad one) that the people for whom he had come,did not recognise him and persecuted him and rejected him.

The above reply is from the point of view of Muslims. That is what the Muslims believe.
**
 
planten said:
No. What he implied was that there is an abrogation in Quran, at least about the change of Qiblah. That was his understanding and it could be any ones misunderstanding. I have shown that there was no order to face to Jeroshlem so no abrogation.
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A mistake was made. That much was admitted and thus the reason for the change. God’s truth should not allow for mistake. You are playing with words, my friend.
 
Reuben_J said:
A mistake was made. That much was admitted and thus the reason for the change. God’s truth should not allow for mistake. You are playing with words, my friend.
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**There was no mistake. The prophet was free to do what he liked and he acted on the old scriptures. There was no mistake or disobediance. There was nothing admitted that God made a mistake. Only a christian mind can think of such things that god made a mistake.

In the beginning, Even if there was an order to face Jeroshlem, God was fully powerful to change that order. Would you call that a mistake of God?? Surely not. But in the absence of any previous order to the contrary, there is no mistake, no case for you. You have not been able to prove any case. **
 
I disagree that the Triune nature of GOD is such that we cannot comprehend it. We can, in fact, understand it in human terms; however, the mystery of GOD Himself is above the human mind. Christianity is completely monotheistic–we believe in the strict unity of GOD–he is one being (not three or ten or a million as in polytheism). Yet within this one being, there are three persons, or persona. We do not understand “persons” relate to how we usually equate it (with individual human people–free will, free thought apart from others, etc.). Rather, person is more along the lines of self-conciousness. GOD is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He is all three forever and always. Each has a unique action toward mankind, yet each persona is active in the job of the other simply because GOD is one being. Imagine a man who is a father, a brother and a son. Each of these is a unique aspect of his being, yet he is still one being. The water, ice, steam analogy is good, but in terms of the Trinity, water, ice and steam would be all three at once and always. There are numerous threads on the Trinity already (many of which I went more in depth). I only came to a clearer understanding of GOD and His nature through Islam and I am grateful for it.

Salamu Alaykum

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
 
ricko said:
but you worship jesus as God and when you go in church you ask from that jesus statue for help.Hope you understands

You are mistaken. We do not ask any statue for help. The statue is not alive and cannot help us.
Yes, we do worship Jesus as God because He is God. The nature of God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Don’t understand? Consider water, it is only water (H2O) but it exists in nature in three forms as a GAS (water vapor), SOLID (ice) and as LIQUID (water). If such a thing can happen in nature why do you think it is impossible with GOD?
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You are comparing small things and example with Almighty God. Tell me one thing jesus eat, drink, sleep, yawn when he was in the earth. If he eats he is not God. Because God never eats, drinks, sleep, yawn etc etc. He is as close to us as over vain of our neck i donot know what vain it called in english. Please donot compare God with materilistic things. Thanks to all
 
tomshaikh,

Jesus Christ is the Incarnate Son of the Father, fully God and fully Man, without confusion, without change, without division, and without separation.

As fully God, He sustains and provides food, drink, and rest for all mankind. As fully Man, He partakes in the eating, drinking, and sleeping like all men.

This is the Christian Mystery of the Incarnation.

Jesus loves you!

Rony
 
ronyodish said:
tomshaikh,

Jesus Christ is the Incarnate Son of the Father, fully God and fully Man, without confusion, without change, without division, and without separation.

As fully God, He sustains and provides food, drink, and rest for all mankind. As fully Man, He partakes in the eating, drinking, and sleeping like all men.

This is the Christian Mystery of the Incarnation.

Jesus loves you!

Rony
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Exactly! It is amazing that even the greatest Muslim thinkers today seem to either misunderstand or completely ignore this fundamental truth (I think it is more the former). It is one thing to understand and still disagree, but most seem to misunderstand and disagree with their faulty conclusions (ironically, Christians would disagree with their conclusions as well!). I remember listening to Ahmed Deedat say something like: Either Christ is divine, or He is human. If He is divine, then GOD died. If He human, then he could not atone for the sins of the world [as no man can]. Of course, he forgot that Christ is both human and divine. Therefore, GOD didn’t die (how can He?), rather his human body died (and He was later resurrected in His body), and He atoned for mankind because He is GOD. Fits like puzzle…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
 
tomshaikh said:
Hi, And whos that three divine persons are. Which vine our wrist one you are talking about and How it related to that practice.
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If a novelist puts himself into his own story - how many of him are there ? 🙂 That is an analogy, nothing more; yet it may help.​

The problem with the idea that we are polytheists for worshipping the Blessed Trinity is, that the accusation of polyteism is materialistic. It’s materialistic because it supposes that God is limited by space - as though God were made of something: were a material or bodily being; & so, were extended in space. We are, because we are of flesh & blood. God is not - God is Infinite & Spirit.
 
tomshaikh said:
-----------------------------------------------------You are comparing small things and example with Almighty God. Tell me one thing jesus eat, drink, sleep, yawn when he was in the earth. If he eats he is not God. Because God never eats, drinks, sleep, yawn etc etc. He is as close to us as over vain of our neck i donot know what vain it called in english. Please donot compare God with materilistic things. Thanks to all
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Well, If “the Word was made flesh, and he lived among us”, and then became a man, whom one could touch, see, hear… well, He had to bear a material form,had He not. If God is all-powerful, can’t He become a man? Why he did, other than to achieve what none of us was ever able to as far as atoning for our sins and freeing us of eternal damnation, we couldn’t have told, I guess.
Why did Muhammad want his people to turn away from false gods? How did they happen to have turned to false gods in the first place?
 
It seems to me that no one on earth should tell God how He should act as God, even though many people seem to be be doing just that…😃
 
Alexius said:
Exactly! It is amazing that even the greatest Muslim thinkers today seem to either misunderstand or completely ignore this fundamental truth (I think it is more the former)
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people misunderstanding is understandable…but what is worse is that the author of the Quran himself, who is supposed to be the all-knowning Allah, made the same mistake by refuting that Jesus is divine because He used to eat food 🙂 . Food of thought for those who insist on telling us that Allah, the all-knowing , does not understand Christian theology by “thinking” that since Jesus ate food it means He “cannot” be divine which is wrong in 2 ways:

1- We do believe Jesus is a human ( the Quranic author didn’t know this , it seems)

2- If God wants to eat, He can and He is still God and hence the Quranic refutation is a shallow as a refutation can get.
 
Lapell said:
Well, If “the Word was made flesh, and he lived among us”, and then became a man, whom one could touch, see, hear… well, He had to bear a material form,had He not. If God is all-powerful, can’t He become a man? Why he did, other than to achieve what none of us was ever able to as far as atoning for our sins and freeing us of eternal damnation, we couldn’t have told, I guess.
Why did Muhammad want his people to turn away from false gods? How did they happen to have turned to false gods in the first place?
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Well in six days God made everything including heaven and hell. If jesus died for over sins for eternal damnation. Than i am guessing who is hell for. Or you gonna ignore that Hell doesn’t exist. From my knowledge It is one of the believe of three big Abrahimic religion to believe on Oneness of God, Heaven and Hell and Judgement day. Without believing that everybody is Non-Beliver.Please answer.
 
tomshaikh said:
Well in six days God made everything including heaven and hell. If jesus died for over sins for eternal damnation. Than i am guessing who is hell for. Or you gonna ignore that Hell doesn’t exist. From my knowledge It is one of the believe of three big Abrahimic religion to believe on Oneness of God, Heaven and Hell and Judgement day. Without believing that everybody is Non-Beliver.Please answer.
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Yeah, indeed. I am not sure I understand what you mean by “Then I am guessing who is hell for.” Is this a question or an affirmation?
 
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