Moses killed a man.. so.. how was it he was close with God and all...?

[distracted]

In today’s Mass readings, Moses kills an Egyptian for striking a Hebrew.

so… there is no mention in scripture about Moses being punished or whatever… or of having to make up for that (?) in order to be in good standing w/ God…

kinda strange…

i can see God allowing the killing of someone if the one killed was a murderer or did something God couldn’t tolerate… but he only struck a Hebrew… :coffeeread:

Any comments that might tend to clear up this confusion would be greatly appreciated…

 

[kennewickmike]

My guess is that it happened before God’s covenant with Moses. Good question. Never thought of it before.

 

[distracted]

My guess is that it happened before God’s covenant with Moses. Good question. Never thought of it before.

i never did either and probably wouldn’t have thoght twice about today’s readings except that i’ve been getting jumped on @ the thread about Tiller … for not thinking that what his killer did was actual murder…

here in this psg, God seems not to make such a big deal out of Moses killing this man… and i don’t know why Moses killed him when all the egyptian did was strike the Hebrew… maybe it was because the Egyptian would have been expected to do something else (??)…

i thought God only condoned killing a person when that person had committed murder or some other reprehensible act? I know that in the OT homosexuals and adulterers were commanded to be stoned to death…

i also know that God told this one man (can’t recall name) in the OT to kill everyone in this one town because of idolatry… kill women and children, leaving no one alive… Then there is sodom and gomorrah… etc

 

[SaltySirena]

Isn’t defense of self or others grounds for justifiable homicide?

 

[distracted]

Isn’t defense of self or others grounds for justifiable homicide?

it doesn’t say the Hebrew was killed, just struck.

 

[SaltySirena]

Oh, okay, so if I am on the street and see someone getting the hell beat out of them, I should just pass on by, because, well, they didn’t get killed yet… :ehh:

And if I intervene by fighting that person off, and they happen to die in the course of that… say they fall over the railing of a bridge or strike their head upon the curb, or I hit their head too hard, or my blows cause a heart arrhythmia… you’re going to account me guilty of sin?! OK…

 

[GEddie]

it doesn’t say the Hebrew was killed, just struck.

But we don’t know what was about to happen, maybe the victim was being beaten to death, or otherwise about to be killed. The Bible is not a police report or a court transcript.

Or maybe Moses meant to defend the victim, and just lost control. God has a way of employing people with emotional issues ICXC NIKA.

 

[kennewickmike]

Oh, okay, so if I am on the street and see someone getting the hell beat out of them, I should just pass on by, because, well, they didn’t get killed yet… :ehh:

And if I intervene by fighting that person off, and they happen to die in the course of that… say they fall over the railing of a bridge or strike their head upon the curb, or I hit their head too hard, or my blows cause a heart arrhythmia… you’re going to account me guilty of sin?! OK…

These are a lot of “if’s.” Slavery was a way of life in those times. It was not unlawful for the Egyptian to strike the Hebrews. If Moses did nothing wrong why did he run away when confronted?

 

[SaltySirena]

These are a lot of “if’s.” Slavery was a way of life in those times. It was not unlawful for the Egyptian to strike the Hebrews. If Moses did nothing wrong why did he run away when confronted?

Slavery and physical abuse were still immoral, even if they weren’t illegal! Perhaps Moses was responding to God’s Law written in his heart, not the unjust laws of man. The very beginnings of him standing up to Pharoah on behalf of the Hebrews?

Why did he run? Death penalty for striking an Egyptian.

 

[kennewickmike]

Slavery and physical abuse were still immoral, even if they weren’t illegal! Perhaps Moses was responding to God’s Law written in his heart, not the unjust laws of man. The very beginnings of him standing up to Pharoah on behalf of the Hebrews?

Why did he run? Death penalty for striking an Egyptian.

I agree they are immoral now. My thought is that all this took place before he received the old covenant from God. Maybe the incident would have played out different if he received the covenant before he saw the man striking the Hebrew.

 

[distracted]

But we don’t know what was about to happen, maybe the victim was being beaten to death, or otherwise about to be killed. The Bible is not a police report or a court transcript.

Or maybe Moses meant to defend the victim, and just lost control. God has a way of employing people with emotional issues ICXC NIKA.

very good point…

and we all have emotional issues…

probably why we have so many wars… why we think we need to have abortion legalized…

yeah, i’d like to think Moses just lost control… that makes sense… in any case, God didn’t hold it against him…

i hope God doesn’t hold it against Roeder either… i feel he was doing God’s work…

i am too cowardly (etc) to do such a thing… and again, it is a very serious thing to send someone to his judgemnt… and yet… the innocent must be protected… That is what law is supposed to be for… to protect society…the unborn are part of society (SHOULD be…!!!).

If everyone were allowed to kill whomever… well, need i say more…

the unborn are people too…

 

[SaltySirena]

I agree they are immoral now.

God’s laws don’t change. Slavery was always immoral, but because God gave us free will, He had to work around our sinfulness, weakness, and venality. Beating someone because he’s not fulfilling your selfish desire has always been immoral. Just human society had to recognize that over time.

 

[ready]

Moses didn’t kill his neighbor with the malice and jealousy with which Cain killed his brother Abel. Neither did he kill for the same bad motive as David with Bethsheba’s husband - to escape being found out of adultery with his wife. He was tested and his righteous anger got the best of him over the horrific treatment of the Hebrews - the same Hebrews whose male children were earlier killed by Pharoah because they were Hebrew and were a threat to Pharoah because of their great number. Let’s never put Moses in the same category as Abel or even David - not to mention the mean criminals. Moses was responding with righteous anger and had to flee to save his life from Pharoah for defending his people against evil aggressors - and killed one of those evil men in the process, not because he himself was malicious and evil, he just responded to the evil with a morally questionable (or evil) act AND ONLY GOD KNOWS WHY he did it and why he should go unpunished - if he did. In the OT midwives told an untruth to Pharoah to save the lives of the Hebrew male children. They were looked favorably upon by God. Why? THEY WERE ON GOD"S SIDE. The same goes for Moses. He was on God’s side! That man he killed was evil and Moses was not. His act may be considered morally evil by some, but to God who has scope, I’m sure he’s exused.

 

[kennewickmike]

I agree with you all. Last thing I want to convey is that I think Moses was a bad person. My point has been the timing of the covenant. God made several covenants with man but they always failed because they were made with man. It was not until he made one with Jesus that it stuck.

Moses did kill someone. At that time he was under a different covenant than he would be later. If he was in Jesus’ time the thing for him to do would have been to turn the other cheek but he was not in Jesus’ time.

I believe we are all saying that Moses was justified in what he did, we are just saying it with different reasons:thumbsup:

 

[SaltySirena]

If he was in Jesus’ time the thing for him to do would have been to turn the other cheek but he was not in Jesus’ time.

You can’t “turn the other cheek” for someone else! That’s pacifism. “I allow you to be abused or die because **I refuse **to defend you!”

How do you reconcile this statement with the fact that the Church teaches that we are to defend human life, and that killing in defense of self or others is justified, if there is no other option to remove the threat?

 

[kennewickmike]

You can’t “turn the other cheek” for someone else! That’s pacifism. “I allow you to be abused or die because **I refuse **to defend you!”

How do you reconcile this statement with the fact that the Church teaches that we are to defend human life, and that killing in defense of self or others is justified, if there is no other option to remove the threat?

I am not willing to make the leap that striking is worth killing. If scripture said “beating to death” instead of “striking” I would agree.

 

[SaltySirena]

I am not willing to make the leap that striking is worth killing. If scripture said “beating to death” instead of “striking” I would agree.

If he was in Jesus’ time the thing for him to do would have been to turn the other cheek but he was not in Jesus’ time.

You said that Moses should have turned the other cheek when he saw the beating. He should have done NOTHING. I say that’s immoral in any time!

I was under the impression that Moses was defending the victim, and that the death was unintentional. Someone else said that Moses may have lost control, but was still acting from righteous anger. I guess we could debate that.

 

[ready]

Since the dawn of mankind murder has always been a sin and every man who committed murder who possessed a good and delicate conscience knew that he had transgressed against God and neighbor by murdering someone; his conscience never let him escape the effects of his evil deed and was a perpetual punishment to him). Written on the hearts of Adam and Eve and all of their progeny was the natural, moral law. Moses probably knew he did something wrong after killing the man, but he probably didn’t feel the hard guilt as did Cain or David either because he didn’t mean to kill (it was an accident) or he was acting as an agent of God putting a stop to a man who was trying to kill a Hebrew. If he downright murdered the mean Egyptian, then God alone can judge that act. Not I.

 

[GEddie]

I am not willing to make the leap that striking is worth killing. If scripture said “beating to death” instead of “striking” I would agree.

But we just don’t know. What had the victim been hit with? How badly was he damaged? Was he about to be hit again? Even in modern times (particularly in our heavily-armed society) people respond with deadly force to a mistaken sense of danger to another.

Or maybe Moses thought the victim was dead (e.g. struck on his head, motionless and bleeding) and struck out instinctively. We can’t know.

 

[kennewickmike]

You said that Moses should have turned the other cheek when he saw the beating. He should have done NOTHING. I say that’s immoral in any time!

I was under the impression that Moses was defending the victim, and that the death was unintentional. Someone else said that Moses may have lost control, but was still acting from righteous anger. I guess we could debate that.

Moses had favor in Pharaoh’s court. He was the adoptive son of Pharaoh’s Daughter Do you not think you could have ordered the man to stop?

Again though, I am discussing how the time period of that particular covenant was not in place yet.