Moses killed a man.. so.. how was it he was close with God and all...?

[kennewickmike]

But we just don’t know. What had the victim been hit with? How badly was he damaged? Was he about to be hit again? Even in modern times (particularly in our heavily-armed society) people respond with deadly force to a mistaken sense of danger to another.

Or maybe Moses thought the victim was dead (e.g. struck on his head, motionless and bleeding) and struck out instinctively. We can’t know.

Exactly! That is why I am not willing to make the leap and say someone deserved to die. Blood thirsty Catholics on this site?

 

[ready]

Exactly! That is why I am not willing to make the leap and say someone deserved to die. Blood thirsty Catholics on this site?

The unjust and cruel Egyptians were the blood thisty. Not Moses. Nor are these (we) Catholics. We defend life. Moses was defending a life being brutally treated by unjust authority. If a Nazi is brutally treating a Hebrew child or an elderly Jew and you have the guts to step in and for whatever reason end up killing that Nazi while defending that persons life suffering grave injustice - are you to be considered the blood thirsty? Killing a Nazi who is about to kill an innocent victim is wrong but it is not the same thing as killing someone innocent in lawful authority is it? The circumstances and intent are very different than blood thirsty criminals experience. It still may be wrong, but the person doing the killing of the Nazi is not the blood thirsty - rather the person he is fighting against is the blood thisrty. In anger Moses is protesting the blood thirstiness of the Egyptians to the point of having to flee from the unlawful authority of Pharoah for having committed murder himself.

 

[kennewickmike]

The unjust and cruel Egyptians were the blood thisty. Not Moses. Nor are these (we) Catholics. We defend life. Moses was defending a life being brutally treated by unjust authority. If a Nazi is brutally treating a Hebrew child or an elderly Jew and you have the guts to step in and for whatever reason end up killing that Nazi while defending that persons life suffering grave injustice - are you to be considered the blood thirsty? Killing a Nazi who is about to kill an innocent victim is wrong but it is not the same thing as killing someone innocent in lawful authority is it? The circumstances and intent are very different than blood thirsty criminals experience. It still may be wrong, but the person doing the killing of the Nazi is not the blood thirsty - rather the person he is fighting against is the blood thisrty. In anger Moses is protesting the blood thirstiness of the Egyptians to the point of having to flee from the unlawful authority of Pharoah for having committed murder himself.

I still go with my earlier post that said:

“I am not willing to make the leap that striking is worth killing. If scripture said “beating to death” instead of “striking” I would agree”

Where in scripture does it say the Egyptian was killing the Hebrew?
If the Nazi’s or whoever are killing people, sure step in.

 

[kennewickmike]

Please people. I am not saying Moses was WRONG

I am saying that he probably did what he did due to the particular covenant he was living under

 

[ready]

I still go with my earlier post that said:

“I am not willing to make the leap that striking is worth killing. If scripture said “beating to death” instead of “striking” I would agree”

Where in scripture does it say the Egyptian was killing the Hebrew?
If the Nazi’s or whoever are killing people, sure step in.

Because Moses is just it is fair for me to understand that his actions were truly warranted. The Bible never talks about Moses being unfavored in God’s eyes like the Lord’s beloved David, who lost his son on account of his infidelities. Perhaps the Eqyptian just cruelly pushed the Hebrew slave - but that would be the last straw on the camel’s back for the just Moses who had witnessed the cruel oppression of the unlawful Egyptians far too often - and far too long.

 

[estesbob]

In today’s Mass readings, Moses kills an Egyptian for striking a Hebrew.

so… there is no mention in scripture about Moses being punished or whatever… or of having to make up for that (?) in order to be in good standing w/ God…

kinda strange…

i can see God allowing the killing of someone if the one killed was a murderer or did something God couldn’t tolerate… but he only struck a Hebrew… :coffeeread:

Any comments that might tend to clear up this confusion would be greatly appreciated…

I wouldnt say he wasnt punished-he went frrom living the life of luxury in a palace to being in the run in the desert. We dont know all the detail of moses life from the time he fled from egypt to the time he approached the burning bush-what we do know is no where in Scripture is approval of actions indicated.

 

[ready]

I don’t justify murder. I just think that Moses was acting in a way that the Lord did not condemn for reasons that only God knows - otherwise Moses would be considered an unjust murderer - and no murderer is favored in God’s eyes (unless they repent and do penance, of course). The Bible never mentioned Moses repenting or doing penance so I think either God did not judge against him - and if He did - forgave him with repentance on Moses’ part. But the Bible doesn’t mention repenting, so only God knows why Moses did what he did and whether he was punished or not for his act.

 

[kennewickmike]

Because Moses is just it is fair for me to understand that his actions were truly warranted. The Bible never talks about Moses being unfavored in God’s eyes like the Lord’s beloved David, who lost his son on account of his infidelities. Perhaps the Eqyptian just cruelly pushed the Hebrew slave - but that would be the last straw on the camel’s back for the just Moses who had witnessed the cruel oppression of the unlawful Egyptians far too often - and far too long.

I am good with that. I am not into Moses bashing!

I was just told earlier that Moses should have killed him do to that person striking the Hebrew then, now, and forever and I was a pacifist if I disagree.

I think Moses was in the right for the particular covenant he was living under

 

[ready]

I am good with that. I am not into Moses bashing!

I was just told earlier that Moses should have killed him do to that person striking the Hebrew then, now, and forever and I was a pacifist if I disagree.

I think Moses was in the right for the particular covenant he was living under

You sound smart.

 

[kennewickmike]

If nobody takes anything else away from what I am saying please understand that I am good with Moses!!!

I defiantly do not want to bad mouth one of God’s most instrumental people in history!

 

[ready]

If nobody takes anything else away from what I am saying please understand that I am good with Moses!!!

I defiantly do not want to bad mouth one of God’s most instrumental people in history!

Don’t worry. I didn’t misunderstand you the first time you posted.

I think Moses was right to fight against (resist) the Egyptians’ injustice; he actively opposed the Egyptian tyrrany and cruel treatment of the Hebrews. Call it a just war (resistance) against the Egyptians, if you will. He had no choice but to put a stop to what the Egyptian was doing to the Hebrew slave at that point, and would have been passively accepting the cruel treatment of his brother(s), if he didn’t act out and respond the way he did. He was an instrument of God at that point doing something objectively wrong (murder) but in a strange way perfectly ushering in God’s plan for him and the Hebrews.

 

[quiet52]

We don’t know the extent of the slavemaster’s abuse toward the Israelite slave. But if Moses had not killed him, but only had pushed him away to protect the slave, the hand of “justice” of the day in those times would have meant the certain death of both the slave and of Moses.

 

[ready]

If your father had a bad habit of terribly physically abusing and oppressing your siblings over and over again and one day you can not take it any more and strike at your father to stop his abuse that is not the same thing as striking your father to kill him when your father is not a guilty perpetrator of evil. Killing is wrong in both instances, but you wouldn’t have the same sort of guilt as a person who kills without a conscience.

 

[distracted]

Moses didn’t kill his neighbor with the malice and jealousy with which Cain killed his brother Abel. Neither did he kill for the same bad motive as David with Bethsheba’s husband - to escape being found out of adultery with his wife. He was tested and his righteous anger got the best of him over the horrific treatment of the Hebrews - the same Hebrews whose male children were earlier killed by Pharoah because they were Hebrew and were a threat to Pharoah because of their great number. Let’s never put Moses in the same category as Abel or even David - not to mention the mean criminals. Moses was responding with righteous anger and had to flee to save his life from Pharoah for defending his people against evil aggressors - and killed one of those evil men in the process, not because he himself was malicious and evil, he just responded to the evil with a morally questionable (or evil) act AND ONLY GOD KNOWS WHY he did it and why he should go unpunished - if he did. In the OT midwives told an untruth to Pharoah to save the lives of the Hebrew male children. They were looked favorably upon by God. Why? THEY WERE ON GOD"S SIDE. The same goes for Moses. He was on God’s side! That man he killed was evil and Moses was not. His act may be considered morally evil by some, but to God who has scope, I’m sure he’s exused.

yeah, almost the same thing w/ Roeder…

 

[distracted]

I agree with you all. Last thing I want to convey is that I think Moses was a bad person. My point has been the timing of the covenant. God made several covenants with man but they always failed because they were made with man. It was not until he made one with Jesus that it stuck.

Moses did kill someone. At that time he was under a different covenant than he would be later. If he was in Jesus’ time the thing for him to do would have been to turn the other cheek but he was not in Jesus’ time.

I believe we are all saying that Moses was justified in what he did, we are just saying it with different reasons:thumbsup:

but are we to turn the ohter cheek when the person being killed (possibly killed) is someone incapable of defenidng himself?

we should not turn the cheek of the unborn and let his killers go on killing…

 

[kennewickmike]

but are we to turn the ohter cheek when the person being killed (possibly killed) is someone incapable of defenidng himself?

we should not turn the cheek of the unborn and let his killers go on killing…

Read the rest of the posts. I am not going to argue the same argument twice. Done with this thread

 

[distracted]

Since the dawn of mankind murder has always been a sin and every man who committed murder who possessed a good and delicate conscience knew that he had transgressed against God and neighbor by murdering someone; his conscience never let him escape the effects of his evil deed and was a perpetual punishment to him). Written on the hearts of Adam and Eve and all of their progeny was the natural, moral law. Moses probably knew he did something wrong after killing the man, but he probably didn’t feel the hard guilt as did Cain or David either because he didn’t mean to kill (it was an accident) or he was acting as an agent of God putting a stop to a man who was trying to kill a Hebrew. If he downright murdered the mean Egyptian, then God alone can judge that act. Not I.

from wht i can ascertain, Moses did not murder the Egyptian because he was probably defending the life of the Hebrew who was struck. i think Moses probably figured the Egyptian was going to kill the Hebrew or there was a darn good chance of it… The reason i say this is because there is no mention of his feeling guilty or talking to God about it… It seems that if the killing were questionable… that would have been mentioned in the Bible… but again, not all things are written of in the Bible… which is why we need more than the Bible… to get us / keep us on that narrow road to Heavne… If all i had were the Bible, i would NOT be a devout Christian… i know htis as sure as i am posting this…

The Real Presence… that’s what did it for me… (and the rosary…the Mass),

Even so, i believe something like htis would have been mentioned in the Bible because… well, murder is a serious thing… so i don’t believe Moses actually murdered anyone… he killed in defense of another…

 

[distracted]

The unjust and cruel Egyptians were the blood thisty. Not Moses. Nor are these (we) Catholics. We defend life. Moses was defending a life being brutally treated by unjust authority. If a Nazi is brutally treating a Hebrew child or an elderly Jew and you have the guts to step in and for whatever reason end up killing that Nazi while defending that persons life suffering grave injustice - are you to be considered the blood thirsty? Killing a Nazi who is about to kill an innocent victim is wrong but it is not the same thing as killing someone innocent in lawful authority is it? The circumstances and intent are very different than blood thirsty criminals experience. It still may be wrong, but the person doing the killing of the Nazi is not the blood thirsty - rather the person he is fighting against is the blood thisrty. In anger Moses is protesting the blood thirstiness of the Egyptians to the point of having to flee from the unlawful authority of Pharoah for having committed murder himself.

so if Roeder had killed the abortionist while he was in the middle of his gruesome work… that would not be murder?

 

[distracted]

Don’t worry. I didn’t misunderstand you the first time you posted.

I think Moses was right to fight against (resist) the Egyptians’ injustice; he actively opposed the Egyptian tyrrany and cruel treatment of the Hebrews. Call it a just war (resistance) against the Egyptians, if you will. He had no choice but to put a stop to what the Egyptian was doing to the Hebrew slave at that point, and would have been passively accepting the cruel treatment of his brother(s), if he didn’t act out and respond the way he did. He was an instrument of God at that point doing something objectively wrong (murder) but in a strange way perfectly ushering in God’s plan for him and the Hebrews.

i don’t think it was murder at all… i think he probably knew or thought that the Egyptian was going to kill the Hebrew… The reason i say this is 'cause there is no mention whatsoever of how this act affected his relationship w/ God… I think the Word would mention if it had…

 

[distracted]

Read the rest of the posts. I am not going to argue the same argument twice. Done with this thread

i don’t know why i put this post here… in rsponse to yours…

i didn’t mean to imply that you thought something different (from what i was saying)