Moses' law VS Mohammad's law

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exoflare:
I haven’t mindlessly quoted anything. Stop getting off the subject. The funny thing is how right after you say this you proceed to blindly slap a ton of Muslim propaganda links on your own post.
The links I provided are for those non-Muslims who mindlessly qoute from anti-Islam sites because they love to remain in their ignorance or have no time/guts to do an independent research
If you haven’t qouted blindly then why worry?
 
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Justice2006:
The links I provided are for those non-Muslims who mindlessly qoute from anti-Islam sites because they love to remain in their ignorance or have no time/guts to do an independent research
If you haven’t qouted blindly then why worry?
And you don’t see the irony in the fact that you’re just mindlessly posting a bunch of propaganda as well? LOL but you call it “independent research” when it’s stuff you like to hear so I guess that makes it okay.
 
And I’m still wondering about your implication that “unique” is the same thing as “correct”…?
 
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exoflare:
And I’m still wondering about your implication that “unique” is the same thing as “correct”…?
Mr. exoflare,

The method and tradition of preserving/retaining the Revealed Arabic Text of the Koran is indeed Unique. It is Unique in a sense that in the known history of our world, no other religious or secular book was ever memorised literally word by word by the hundrends to millions of people of different nations/tribes for 14 centuries by the Arab Muslims and non-Arabic speaking Muslims.

And this devotional tradition of memorization requires qualified teachers to verify the accuracy of pronunciation and precise memorization. This tradition is a continuous unbroken chain which goes back from our period to the period of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).

A seperate branch of knowledge/science has been developed at the same time, called Tajweed (i.e, The art of Reading/Recitation) in order to retain/preserve the precise revealed pronunciation of Arabic. Any non-Arab after learning thisTajweed can pronounce Arabic Text of the Koran the way a native Arab recites the revealed text.

And most Huffaaz, recite the Koran on a continuous/regular basis, privately and in congregational prayers, during/after the completion of full memorization of the whole Koran. Thus this channel of Unique Memorization alongwith the channel of written manuscripts, leaves no room to doubt the CORRECTness of the whole text of the KORAN. Not to mention the remarkable memorization of even blind-people, who memorize the whole Koran by just listening recitations of it from other Muslims. Can you find such example of devotion and extro-ordinary concern in anyother society/religion with any other relgious/non-religious book?

.
 
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Justice2006:
Thus this channel of Unique Memorization alongwith the channel of written manuscripts, leaves no room to doubt the CORRECTness of the whole text of the KORAN. Not to mention the remarkable memorization of even blind-people, who memorize the whole Koran by just listening recitations of it from other Muslims. Can you find such example of devotion and extro-ordinary concern in anyother society/religion with any other relgious/non-religious book?[/INDENT]
Have you ever heard of a little game called ‘Chinese whispers’ Justice? You know, where you sit in a circle and one person whispers a sentence to the next person who repeats it to the next person after them? The point of the game is that by the time the end of the circle is reached the sentence is completely different from the original. And this is your evidence that the Koran is uncorrupted?
 
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LilyM:
Have you ever heard of a little game called ‘Chinese whispers’ Justice? You know, where you sit in a circle and one person whispers a sentence to the next person who repeats it to the next person after them? The point of the game is that by the time the end of the circle is reached the sentence is completely different from the original. And this is your evidence that the Koran is uncorrupted?
But the memorization of the Koran requires a text in front of you in order to repeat/rehearse again and again until you can recite without looking at the book. And then after memorization, the memorizer recites to his teacher to get his approval. Then most memorizers recites the Koran in daily prayers and the complete text in the months of the Ramadhan in congregational prayers. It is a whole life activity besides keeping the written/published Korans.

So your objection is meaningless.

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Justice2006 said:
Mr. inJESUS,
The preservation of The Koran

was not just through written record but through WORD by WORD complete memorization in the dialect it was revealed and in the dialects it was allowed to recite and then through continuous remembrance/recitiations in the daily non-stop five times a day prayers and once every year rehearsing of whole text of the Koran during the months of Ramadhan, out of memory and verification by the listeners, right after the Koran was revealed. but sahih muslim gives evidence of people forgetting verses or adding verses…as to the dialects, there were 7 of them, each different from the other…and the variants of quran were added later : how do you make sure that the thousands of quranic verses without variants were adjusted adequatly when muslim scholars themselves believe that many verses could be read in an entirely different way?
The tradition of memorization of the Koran is UNIQUE and there is no such tradition attached to any other religious or non-religious book on the face of this earth in the entire known-history of the world. This Unique memorization is a TAWATUR
tradition which goes back to the Period of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) from our day. how do you make it unique? can you prove that only muslims on this earth have a “unique” tradition of memorization? i don’t so coz history proves something else and the hadith show a different reality.
At the present there are millions of Huffaaz
in the world of Muslims, who knew the whole text of the Koran by heart, word by word. There are numerous Tafaasir (Commentries) too as well where in the whole text of the Koran is found. we’re interested in the past, not present…
It is only the Arabic original trext which is considered/accepted as the Koran
and it is this text only which is memorized word by word. yes even if you don’t understand a single word.Do you know arabic for example?
If every written document of the Koran (Masaahif) is destroyed from the face of the earth, it is not going to change an iota of the original Arabic text of the Koran because it will be re-written, re-produced, out of memory from the hearts of those millions of Huffaz
at any time and in any given period. then prove that not a single iota is different from the quran burnt by Uthman.
What the Third Caliph after the Prophet, Uthmaan ibn 'Affaan
, did was, in his period, when Islam spread rapidly in all four directions, and non-Arabs too embraced Islam, they alongwith some Arabs whose dialect/pronunciation was totally different than allowed/revealed dialects of the Koran, were **reciting ** the text of the Koran in other than revealed/allowed dialacts. When this news reached to Caliph Uthmaan, he took a very strong action. Why? Because the Koran was supposed to preserve in it’s pure form as it is since it is considered the last and Final Revelation till the end time of this earth. So he prepared official copies and were verified by the Scribes of the Prophets and Companions of the Prophet and those who knew the whole Koran by heart. There was no objection at that time to the copies made by Uthmaan. Then they were sent to different centers of Islamic Caliphate with an order to retain this original dialect/script and discard every other copy which contradicts. you bet there were objections to Uthmans’ copy…open a new thread for this.
The one way to retain this Original was to completly discard those copies which might create confusion.
why confusion if they were the same and if muhammad himself allowed 7 variants?
Now, were they all destroyed? Not necessarily. Some still might had in their possession who did not hear the order of Uthmaan.
proof.
But what happened later? Caliphate was turned into Mulukiyyah (Monarchy) after fourth Caliph and a brief period of 'Umar bin Abdul-'Azeez. Many dynesties emerged. Some were shia or pro- Shia too. Some were not fully Islamic. But did they ever try or were able to change the text of the Koran?
irrelevant coz the original qurans were burnt.
 
:
Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 6.521
Narrated Masriq:
Code:
'Abdullah bin 'Amr mentioned 'Abdullah bin Masud and said, "I shall
ever love that man, for I heard the Prophet saying, 'Take (learn) the
Quran from four: **'Abdullah bin Masud, Salim, Mu'adh and Ubai bin
Ka'b.' "** ( but it was Zaid who compiled it and Uthman accepted Zaid's copy and burnt all the other original qurans )
This man (Abdullah Ibn Masud) not only had a different Quran but also
(based on Sunni sources) he had a different sequence of chapters and
different set of aayaat. He alleged that the present Quran has some extra
words, and he swears in the name of Allah for his claim! (see Sahih al-
Bukhari, Arabic-English version, 6.468, 5.105, 5.85). He also falsely
alleged that the last two chapters of Quran are not Quranic chapters and
they are only some prayers (Du’aa). (see Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English
version, 6.501)

please do not answer these posts in here otherwise the Moderator will close the thread…i won’t answer any question not related to the main question of this thread…
PS: to all others, please do not let him digress.

We go back now to our main argument…any ideas?
 
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Justice2006:
Mr. exoflare,

The method and tradition of preserving/retaining the Revealed Arabic Text of the Koran is indeed Unique. It is Unique in a sense that in the known history of our world, no other religious or secular book was ever memorised literally word by word by the hundrends to millions of people of different nations/tribes for 14 centuries by the Arab Muslims and non-Arabic speaking Muslims.
You’re still missing the point. Either that or you know what it is and don’t want to address it. How do you conclude that because some book was memorized word for word for several generations, then it must follow that that book was divinely inspired? Several things of all kinds could be pointed out as “unique” in history, and yet only in the case of the Quran do you say it necessarily follows that “unique” must mean “from God”. This is the most arbitrary reasoning I’ve ever heard. And you really expect anyone to take you seriously?
 
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inJESUS:
please do not answer these posts in here otherwise the Moderator will close the thread…i won’t answer any question not related to the main question of this thread…
PS: to all others, please do not let him digress.

We go back now to our main argument…any ideas?
I’ve been trying to stick to the main subject with this guy, but if you think I’ve digressed just let me know.
 
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exoflare:
I’ve been trying to stick to the main subject with this guy, but if you think I’ve digressed just let me know.
He ALWAYS digresses and many threads are closed because of this…just do not answer any post that doesn’t belong to the main question of this thread…thx and God bless 🙂
 
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Emad:
Jesus said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)”

Christians always say as an excuse “Oh this law doesn’t exist in the New Testament, it is only the Old Testament.” Well, according to Matthew 5:17-18 above, we clearly see that Jesus honored the Old Testament, and forces Christians to follow the unmodified laws of it that have not been replaced by newer ones in the New Testament. The Old Testament as we clearly see above does indeed allow polygamy without a shadow of a doubt !!.
The New Testament (Gospel) does not abolish the Old Testament (Torah) but rather fulfils it. You are confusing the two very different terms, abolish and fulfil. The former means to destroy, while the latter means to explain.

The Pharisees abolished the Torah with their oral Laws (later known as the Quran by Muhammad), while we, Christians do not destroy the Torah with our oral Laws (later known as the New Testament by the Church). And this is exactly why our Lord Jesus called those Pharisees as followers of the teachings of the devil.
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Emad:
There is not a single verse from the New Testament that prohibits polygamy. Christians usually mistakenly present the following verses from the Bible to prove that polygamy in the New Testament is not allowed:
If you cannot even understand the verse you quoted above, then how will you know that there is not a single verse in the New Testament that prohibits polygamy?

If you read the New Testament carefully, our Lord Jesus clearly issues an injunction forbiding divorce stating Moses allowed it because of the hardness of the hearts of Israel. He also discouraged people from seeking to marry for pleasure (which is very different from Muhammad who considered sexual lust as natural law of God). From this, we can only conclude marriage is a sacrament that models the Trinity and so, can be only monogamous. Polygamy was, is and will always be adultery.
 
The Pharisees abolished the Torah with their oral Laws (later known as the Quran by Muhammad),
Hey Murtad.i don’t know on what you base this idea but i disagree with you…it is the nasara that made the quran…that is, the heretic nazaritic teachings of 7th arabia…if you know arabic, i’ll give you a million proof that show you how these heretic teachings ended us as quran.
 
To all Christian Brothers:

Here are some usefull links for you, since you ask for replies from the Muslims. Because most fo your objections come from anit-Islam missionary sites and the following sites expose their lies and false propaganda.

Before you jump to any conclusion based on bias sites, please research or atleast read the following because no one is twisting your arms to embrace Islam or forcing you to agree with Islam’s point-of-view.

’Doctorer’ Ali Sina Exposed
faithfreedom.com/ali_sina_exposed.html

Islamic Awareness
islamic-awareness.org/
Bismikaallahuma.org
bismikaallahuma.org/
The True Religion
thetruereligion.org/missionary.htm
Investigating Islam
islamic.org.uk/
Muslim Answers
muslim-answers.org/
Sharif.org
sharif.org.uk/
Guided Ones
guidedones.com/
Understanding Islam
understanding-islam.org/
Examine the Truth
ExamineTheTruth.com

God bless you all.
 
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Justice2006:
To all Christian Brothers:

Here are some usefull links for you, since you ask for replies from the Muslims. Because most fo your objections come from anit-Islam missionary sites and the following sites expose their lies and false propaganda.

Before you jump to any conclusion based on bias sites, please research or atleast read the following because no one is twisting your arms to embrace Islam or forcing you to agree with Islam’s point-of-view.

’Doctorer’ Ali Sina Exposed
faithfreedom.com/ali_sina_exposed.html

Islamic Awareness
islamic-awareness.org/
Bismikaallahuma.org
bismikaallahuma.org/
The True Religion
thetruereligion.org/missionary.htm
Investigating Islam
islamic.org.uk/
Muslim Answers
muslim-answers.org/
Sharif.org
sharif.org.uk/
Guided Ones
guidedones.com/
Understanding Islam
understanding-islam.org/
Examine the Truth
ExamineTheTruth.com

God bless you all.
Hello, thx for the links…is there anything in them that replies to the questions of this thread? if yes, please quote them for the sake of clarity. thx and God bless you as well.
 
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inJESUS:
Hello, thx for the links…is there anything in them that replies to the questions of this thread? if yes, please quote them for the sake of clarity. thx and God bless you as well.
Dear inJESUS,
Do you want me to qoute atleast THREE FULL pages the way you copied-pasted in your OP?

I don’t think so. It is a watse of time and server space. What you can do; I already gave you the links, read them all. But before that know Islam from it’s basics starting from fundamentals then go further…then hopefully you will never raise any “objection” that you are raising now by blindly/midlessly copy-pasting.

You think that anything that is found on any anti-Islam/Christian missionary sites must be true against Islam. Well, I am afraid that you must first get rid of this baseless mentality and see things AS THEY ARE and not AS YOU WISH TO SEE from you or someone else’ bias eyes.

God Bless You.
 
you gave like 10 links…don’t you think it IS a waste of time to read them all just to look for my answer? tell me which one of the links addresses this topic, give me the direct link of the page if possible…if i need general knowlegde i go to muslim sites…but here i need a specific one, can you point at it? thx.
 
Justice, your latest barrage of propaganda links is the only “waste of time and server space” I see on here. Stop trying to evade the subject and address the actual questions you were given already. :mad:
 
ok…more than 50 posts so far and absolutely no answer,

could anyone care to answer at least why God calls something “shameful” and then calls it “permissible”? is God inconsistent regarding morality? did He change His mind and realized He was wrong about His standard?
 
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