Moslem leader speaks on Women

[Valke2]

Notice that every single Muslim leader quoted in the article condemned the remarks.

There’s no one supporting the guy. So what’s the news about Islam?

Islam condemns disrespect for women. After all, why would everyone be opposing this guy if it didn’t?

You’re kidding, right? You don’t see how the top cleric in a country saying this reflects on Islam? At the very least it shows a schism within the religion as to the treatment of women.

 

[Montalban]

Hi pro,
I didn’t realise you were in Australia too.
I agree with your post here.
Even though I despise what the sheik said, I think a lot of this outrage in the media is exactly the media.
They have picked up on this as it seems to be the trend to “pick on” Muslims.
There is never an outrage like this about the way rapes are handled within our judicial system, yet that system is just as deplorable as these comments by the sheik.

Are you saying that the media should have kept mum for fear of seeming to have ‘picked on’ him? What a strange world you live in down there in Victoria - where the Victorian government is backing a Moslem attack on freedom of speech by a Christian group “Catch the Fire Ministries”

 

[Montalban]

I’m living in the ACT

I lived there for a year. I was studying at the ANU.

However, I note you continue to make ‘just-so’ statements about his views not being representative.

We’ve had two sheikhs just in Sydney alone make such remarks!

 

[pro_universal]

You’re kidding, right? You don’t see how the top cleric in a country saying this reflects on Islam? At the very least it shows a schism within the religion as to the treatment of women.

No, I don’t. He clearly was wrong and considered to be wrong by the rest of the Muslim community.

Leaders say dumb and incorrect things. Here’s an example.

 

[Montalban]

No, I don’t. He clearly was wrong and considered to be wrong by the rest of the Muslim community.

No that’s misleading. How own community leaders said he was misrepresented by the paper - that’s why they’ve not sacked him!

Leaders say dumb and incorrect things. Here’s an example…

The Prophet said, “If anyone of you rouses from sleep and performs the ablution, he should wash his nose by putting water in it and then blowing it out thrice, because Satan has stayed in the upper part of his nose all the night.”
Narrated Abu Huraira
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 516:
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/054.sbt.html#004.054.516

 

[Valke2]

The Prophet said, “If anyone of you rouses from sleep and performs the ablution, he should wash his nose by putting water in it and then blowing it out thrice, because Satan has stayed in the upper part of his nose all the night.”
Narrated Abu Huraira
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 516:
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/054.sbt.html#004.054.516

Every religion has its superstitions that look odd to people. SOme might look at the casting out of demons in the same way. And Christians believed for quite some time that when one sneezed, they were expelling evil.

 

[Montalban]

Every religion has its superstitions that look odd to people. Some might look at the casting out of demons in the same way. And Christians believed for quite some time that when one sneezed, they were expelling evil.

What you state; truism.

There are people in both who are superstitious. Find me Christ teaching this, and you’ll have a better comparison (as I’ve cited what Muhammad is said to have said)

“The Prophet (Muhammed) said, ‘Yawning is from Satan and if anyone of you yawns, he should check his yawning as much as possible, for if anyone of you (during the act of yawning) should say: ‘Ha’, Satan will laugh at him.’” (Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 4:54:509)
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/054.sbt.html#004.054.509

However I’m going off-topic furnishing more strange sayings attributable to Muhammed. I note no one has refuted where I have him talking about women as an evil omen. SO, returning to the discussion on women, here’s what he had to say…

“The prophet of Allah said: When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire, let her come to him though she is occupied at the oven.”
Mishkat al-Masabih, English translation, Book I, Section ‘Duties of husband and wife’, Hadith No. 61

 

[Montalban]

And before anyone accuses me of taking this verse out of context, I’m glad to give an Islamic interpretation on it


Islamic Voice

Does a wife have the right to refuse sex with her husband?

Q. If at a particular time, a lady has no desire for sex with her husband, but he insists for it, what is her right of refusal in this context?

Abdul Wahabs

A. If a husband expresses his desire for sexual intercourse with his wife, and asks her to fulfill his need, then she should fulfill her husband’s desire, and she has no right to refuse him or deprive him of his need (unless of course if she is undergoing her monthly menstruation period or is down with illness).

Islam encourages and insists on chastity and fidelity. Islam prohibits and condemns illicit sexual relations, extra-marital affairs, pre-marriage sex, fornication, adultery, prostitution, pornography and promiscuity. It is for this reason that a wife is bound to fulfill her husband’s sexual desires so as to prevent him from straying.

Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah’s Apostle said, “If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relations) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning.”
(Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol.4 Hadith No.460 & Sahih Muslim Vol.2 Hadith No.3368)

Narrated Abu Huraira

The Messenger of Allah (swt) said: By Him in whose hand is my life, when a man calls his wife to his bed, and she does not respond, the One Who is in the heaven is displeased with her until he (her husband) is pleased with her.
(Sahih Muslim Vol.2 Hadith No.3367)

Narrated Talq ibn Ali

Allah’s Messenger (Pbuh) said, “When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven.”
(Al-Tirmidhi Hadith No.1160 & Ibn Ma’jah Hadith No.4165)

From all the above-mentioned Ahadith, it is Wajib upon the wife to fulfill the desire of her husband whenever he wishes.

If the relationship between the husband and the wife is truly based on Islamic principles, in which both of them treat each other with love, affection, kindness, fulfilling all Islamic desires and settling all matters with mutual agreement and understanding, the question of the wife refusing the sexual desire of the husband does not arise. Nor does the question arise of the husband being insistent or getting perturbed at her not wanting to have sex.

Allah (swt) says in the Qur’an in Surah Rum, chapter 30, verse no. 21:

“And among His signs is this that He created for you mates from among yourselves that you may dwell in tranquility with them and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts); verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.”

If on certain rare occasions, the husband shows a desire for sexual intercourse with his wife, and for some genuine reason the wife shows a hesitation (not refusal), then if possible, the husband can be understanding and voluntarily and happily give indication for postponement!

Allah (swt) says in the Qur’an, in Surah Baqara, chapter 2, verse no 187:

“They (your wives) are your garments. And you are their garments.”

Here, because of the strong bond between the husband and the wife, if the husband is not displeased or angry, the angels will not curse the wife and neither will she displease the Almighty. And Allah knows the best.
islamicvoice.com/february.2003/religion.htm

 

[Montalban]

Here’s another

QUERIES ON ISLAM

Does a wife have the right to refuse sex with her husband ?

Q5. If at a particular time, a lady has no desire for sex with her husband, but he insists for it, what is her right of refusal in this context ?

Abdul Wahab

A5. If a husband expresses his desire for sexual intercourse with his wife, and asks her to fulfill his need, then she should fulfill her husband’s desire, and she has no right to refuse him or deprive him of his need (unless of course if she is undergoing her monthly menstruation period or is down with illness.

Islam encourages and insists on chastity and fidelity. Islam prohibits and condemn illicit sexual relations, extra-maritial affairs, pre-marriage sex, fornication, adultery, prostitution, pornography and promiscuity. It is for this reason that a wife is bound to fulfill her husband’s sexual desires so as to prevent him form straying.

Narrarted Abu Huraira

Allah’s Apostle (Pbuh) said, " If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relations) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning." (Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol. 4 Hadith No. 460 & Sahih Muslim Vol. 2 Hadith No. 3368)

Narrated Abu Huraira

The Messenger of Allah (swt) said: By him in whose hand is my life, when a man calls his wife to his bed, and she does not respond, the One Who is in the heaven is displeased with her untill he (her husband) is pleased with her. (Sahih Muslim Vol. 2 Hadith No. 3367)

Narrated Taiq ibn Ali

Allah’s Messenger (Pbuh) said, " When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven." (Al Tirmidhi Hadith No. 1160 & Ibn Ma’jah Hadith No. 4165)

From all the above mentioned Ahadith, it is Wajib upon the wife to fulfill the desire of her husband whenever he wishes. If the relationship between the husband and the wife is truly based on Islamic principles, in which both of them treat each other with love, affection, kindness, fulfilling all Islamic desires and settling all matters with mutual agreement and understanding, the question of the wife refusing the sexual desire of the husband does not arise. Nor does the question arise of the husband being insistent or getting perturbed at her not wanting to have sex.

Allah (swt) says in the Qur’an in Surah Rum, Chapter 30, verse no. 21:

" And among His signs is this that He created for you mates from among yourselves that you may dwell in tranquility with them and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts); verily in that are Signs for those who reflect."

If on certain rare occasions, the husband shows a desire for sexual intercourse with his wife, and for some genuine reason the wife shows a hesitation (not refusal), then it is possible, the husband can be understanding and voluntarily and happily give indication for postponement!

Allah (swt) says in the Qur’an, in Surah Baqara, chapter 2, verse no. 187:

“They (your wives) are your garments. And you are their garments.”

Here, because of the strong bond between the husband and the wife, if the husband is not displeased or angry, the angels will not curse his wife and neither will she displease the Almighty. And Allah knows the best.

irf.net/irf/dtp/dawah_tech/ques5.htm

 

[pro_universal]

I lived there for a year. I was studying at the ANU.

However, I note you continue to make ‘just-so’ statements about his views not being representative.

We’ve had two sheikhs just in Sydney alone make such remarks!

Yeah, except before there were any Sheikhs in Sydney, Australians were defending themselves in rape trials with the “she wanted it and dressed the part” defense.

It is hypocrisy and misdirection in the extreme to seize on a story about Muslims saying what Australians have been saying (and winning criminal cases with) for as long as anyone can remember.

Like I said…“Muslim makes rude and offensive remarks about rape victims” is a big headline.

But curiously, “Australian courts free rapists who use ‘she wanted it’ defense and force victims to be victimized again at trial” doesn’t make any headlines…unless of course, the perps are Muslims.

And when Muslim women are attacked by Australian men in cases that rarely go to trial, and then mostly fail when they do go to trial, it doesn’t make the news at all.

So, I have to ask…what are these stories really about? Are they about respect for women, or is “muslim” the key ingredient?

 

[eleonardo]

I would say the latter, though the key ingredient being “SENIOR” muslim. As we say here “high trees catch a lot of wind”.
Pax tecum.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Pro,
Thanks for admitting that the Mufti of Australia is no better than the average rapist who blames his victim for ‘asking for it’. If you can’t see just how horrible that is I’m sure others will.

For one thing - most rapists of all creed, faith and color would make such excuses. That, surely, is no reason for a purported senior religious figure claiming moral authority and speaking on behalf of a religion to do so.

Secondly, it’s still tu quoque. Why can’t Muslims argue without committing logical fallacies? It’s either tu quoque, or ad hominems or ad verecundiams. Those are the popular fallacies Muslims argue with, it seems.

 

[Montalban]

Yeah, except before there were any Sheikhs in Sydney, Australians were defending themselves in rape trials with the “she wanted it and dressed the part” defense.

If you’re attempting a record of the most ‘missing-the-point’ posts? You’re well on your way. No where has anyone made any comment denying that people have raped. What we are doing is showing that it’s linked to Islam

To do this people have cited Islamic leaders advocating such a defence. Simply find ‘my’ leaders making the same defence and you’ll be on your way to making a point - but alas not likely.

Also, for an ‘Australian’ why do you use American spelling conventions - defense instead of defence.

pro_universal:

It is hypocrisy and misdirection in the extreme to seize on a story about Muslims saying what Australians have been saying (and winning criminal cases with) for as long as anyone can remember.

It is again misrepresentation by you we see here now. This is not ‘one’ case. I’ve see three Muftis alone mentioned - all from different years. I cited two other Moslem advice sites. None of which you attempt to tackle.

Also, as you’ve made the claim, please cite for me the legal cases that you speak of. When I’m researching a case I use austlii.edu.au/, or caselaw.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/ which are good tools to use.

Try Butterworth’s (now called LexisNexis, horrible name! I’m too old fashioned), but in fairness to you, you won’t likely have an account with them (you can do limited searches if you try; e.g Unreported Judgments). Be my guest. Take your time.

pro_universal:

Like I said…“Muslim makes rude and offensive remarks about rape victims” is a big headline.

But curiously, “Australian courts free rapists who use ‘she wanted it’ defense and force victims to be victimized again at trial” doesn’t make any headlines…unless of course, the perps are Muslims.

As I say, it’s time to put up… show me the evidence.

pro_universal:

And when Muslim women are attacked by Australian men in cases that rarely go to trial, and then mostly fail when they do go to trial, it doesn’t make the news at all.

Firstly, your comment is racist! These ‘Moslem women’ are likely to be ‘Australian’ too, are they not? If you mean “And when Moslem women in Australia are attacked by non-Moslem men in cases …etc.” then you should say so.

And again I offer you the chance to please offer some evidence. Show me the evidence that non-Moslem men are gang raping Moslem women - with, or without incitement to commit such a crime by members of their clergy.

pro_universal:

So, I have to ask…what are these stories really about? Are they about respect for women, or is “Muslim” the key ingredient?

The OP is about Moslem attitudes to women.

 

[Montalban]

Pro,
Thanks for admitting that the Mufti of Australia is no better than the average rapist who blames his victim for ‘asking for it’. If you can’t see just how horrible that is I’m sure others will.

For one thing - most rapists of all creed, faith and color would make such excuses. That, surely, is no reason for a purported senior religious figure claiming moral authority and speaking on behalf of a religion to do so.

Secondly, it’s still tu quoque. Why can’t Muslims argue without committing logical fallacies? It’s either tu quoque, or ad hominems or ad verecundiams. Those are the popular fallacies Muslims argue with, it seems.

Selective myopia as he addresses some posts but seems to have missed evidence in posts #28 & #29 from other ‘experts’ supporting that women are seen as nothing but inferior, sex slaves to men.

 

[cestusdei]

Notice something here. A Muslim rapes a woman…it’s her fault for dressing that way or not covering. A Muslim beheads someone…it’s his fault for leaving Islam. A Muslim flys a plane into the wtc…it’s the fault of US policy. A Muslim complains of being poor…it’s the fault of Bush. A Muslim complains of being backward…it’s the Jews fault. A Muslim shoots a nun…it’s the Pope’s fault. It’s always someone elses fault.

 

[pro_universal]

Also, for an ‘Australian’ why do you use American spelling conventions - defense instead of defence.

I’m not Australian, that’s why. But as you well know, non-Australians do live in Australia.

It is again misrepresentation by you we see here now. This is not ‘one’ case. I’ve see three Muftis alone mentioned - all from different years. I cited two other Moslem advice sites. None of which you attempt to tackle.

How many people voted for Pauline Hanson? How many for the “muftis”?

Also, as you’ve made the claim, please cite for me the legal cases that you speak of. When I’m researching a case I use austlii.edu.au/, or caselaw.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/ which are good tools to use.

What do you research cases for? I have full access to American westlaw, lexisnexis, and the Australian versions of both. Let me know what you can see, and I’ll cite a source that you can log into and read online without having to go to your law library and look it up.

As I say, it’s time to put up… show me the evidence.

Some quick sources that will detail the problems with Australian law’s treatment of rape victims:

VLRC Report-Sexual Offences-2004 (not sure if you can get it online, and it’s specific to victoria)

For the complete lack of rape shield laws in Australia and the way evidence law victimizes rape victims:
austlii.edu.au/au/other/alrc/publications/reports/102/25.html#Heading98

Here’s some more on evidence law:

138.25.65.50/au/other/alrc/publications/reports/102/

Read there about how your courts like to “warn” juries about how women who wait to report rapes are less credible.

Firstly, your comment is racist! These ‘Moslem women’ are likely to be ‘Australian’ too, are they not? If you mean “And when Moslem women in Australia are attacked by non-Moslem men in cases …etc.” then you should say so.

Good point. Non-Muslim Australian men who rape Muslim women (of any nationality) is what I was referring to.

the chance to please offer some evidence. Show me the evidence that non-Moslem men are gang raping Moslem women - with, or without incitement to commit such a crime by members of their clergy.

My point was that it rarely gets reported or tried. To list the evidence I know of would require breaches of confidentiality that I can’t make. But it’s a fact: it happens in Australia, and the victims face just the problem that other rape victims in Australia do.

is about Moslem attitudes to women.

Right, and I’m pointing out how much of a media circus it is to talk about what Muslims think of women, whereas strangely, the criminal justice system’s treatment of women never makes the papers at all.

So I repeat my question: Is this about women, or is this about bashing Muslims? If it were about women…you’d think that other, more damaging and powerful mechanisms of victimization would be making the papers. That leads me to believe that this is more about bashing Muslims than helping women.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

What’s this with Muslims and tu quoque? Are they genetically predisposed to logical fallacies? For someone supposedly with a law degree you can’t help tu quoque, can you? If you go to court to defend your client, do you point out the judge’s failure to bash America? Or do you answer the question unreservedly?

How does what Americans do or don’t do absolve Islam and Muslims from the charge of ‘blaming the rape victim’?

 

[pro_universal]

What’s this with Muslims and tu quoque? Are they genetically predisposed to logical fallacies? For someone supposedly with a law degree you can’t help tu quoque, can you? If you go to court to defend your client, do you point out the judge’s failure to bash America? Or do you answer the question unreservedly?

How does what Americans do or don’t do absolve Islam and Muslims from the charge of ‘blaming the rape victim’?

You do not understand what a tu quoque is.

I am not arguing that the man’s comments are correct because Australian’s mistreatment of victims is correct.

Rather, I’m arguing that the reason this is a big media story in the first place is discrimination against Muslims. If it were really about sensitivity to the issue of rape victims, there would be front page stories about how rape victims get abused by the justice system every day.

But the issue only makes the covers in the mouth of a Muslim. Why is that?

Because it’s more about criticizing Islam generally than it is about being offended by mistreatment of rape victims. Hence, this kind of criticism has absolutely nothing to do with solving the problem of mistreatment and victimization of rape survivors, and everything to do with bashing a religion.

And the comments by some on this thread are consistent with that. Do they want to hear anything about rape victims and the way western systems systematically abuse them? Of course not. They’d rather confine the discussion to bashing Muslims. That’s because the real interest here isn’t even in tackling or understanding what they think are problems in Islam…it’s about finding any excuse possible to justify blanket hatred of Muslims.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pro:

You do not understand what a tu quoque is.

Of course I do - I have hung around Muslims long enough.

pro:

I am not arguing that the man’s comments are correct because Australian’s mistreatment of victims is correct.

Rather, I’m arguing that the reason this is a big media story in the first place is discrimination against Muslims. If it were really about sensitivity to the issue of rape victims, there would be front page stories about how rape victims get abused by the justice system every day.

But the issue only makes the covers in the mouth of a Muslim. Why is that?

Isn’t he the Mufti of Australia? When one is a religious figure in a democratic society doesn’t one expect to be quoted in the press? Or do you think senior Islamic religious leaders ought to go scot-free making scandalous remarks?

Notice how the Pope’s comments got splashed all over the world media but you don’t have a problem with that - even if what he said was not especially controversial (and it was true anyway).

But the Shaykh’s comments get printed and you howl.

Why the double standards?

pro:

Because it’s more about criticizing Islam generally than it is about being offended by mistreatment of rape victims. Hence, this kind of criticism has absolutely nothing to do with solving the problem of mistreatment and victimization of rape survivors, and everything to do with bashing a religion.

So blaming the victim has absolutely everything to do with solving the problem of mistreatment and victimization of rape survivors?

What a red herring. Who told you the media when reporting any religious figure’s comments has to solve the problem of mistreatment and victimization of rape survivors?

Who told you that? That is just a nonsensical non-existent ‘standard’ or ‘requirement’ you made up to whitewash the Shaykh’s oppobrius comments.

pro:

And the comments by some on this thread are consistent with that. Do they want to hear anything about rape victims and the way western systems systematically abuse them? Of course not. They’d rather confine the discussion to bashing Muslims. That’s because the real interest here isn’t even in tackling or understanding what they think are problems in Islam…it’s about finding any excuse possible to justify blanket hatred of Muslims.

Because that is tu quoque. Did you think the Shaykh was ‘peaking of the way Western systems systematically abuse rape victims’?

No. He cast blame on the rape victims. How is that addressing the issue in any way? How is blaming the rape victim going to help them in any way?

The real issue here is that there is no Islamic act that is beneath your whitewashing attempts, and you commit all sorts of logical fallacies to do so.

 

[pro_universal]

Isn’t he the Mufti of Australia? When one is a religious figure in a democratic society doesn’t one expect to be quoted in the press? Or do you think senior Islamic religious leaders ought to go scot-free making scandalous remarks?

Of course. That wasn’t the point though. I keep reading your responses wondering if you’re reading some other thread and then accidentally posting here…because you clearly do not understand the issue I’m raising.

What a red herring. Who told you the media when reporting any religious figure’s comments has to solve the problem of mistreatment and victimization of rape survivors?

Well, if the media aren’t concerned with the mistreatment of women, what’s the basis for raising a storm over the man’s comments?

The basis for these attacks is supposedly that his statements are offensive and incompatible with public discourse on the subject. Yet, the fact that the justice system actually treats victims this way (as opposed to just saying offensive things) doesn’t make the headlines. That is good evidence that bare hatred of Muslims is motivating the storm, not real concern for the specific issue at hand.

No. He cast blame on the rape victims. How is that addressing the issue in any way? How is blaming the rape victim going to help them in any way?

Again, you missed the boat. Reread my posts. I’m sorry I have to say it so many times, but your misunderstanding and misconstrual of my points is so complete that there’s no other real solution.