Most Catholics saved?

[PapaBennySix]

Wow, this is a powerful sermon!

The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved
by St. Leonard of Port Maurice

olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml

A couple quotes:
Pious souls, you may leave; this sermon is not for you. Its sole purpose is to contain the pride of libertines who cast the holy fear of God out of their heart and join forces with the devil who, according to the sentiment of Eusebius, damns souls by reassuring them. To resolve this doubt, let us put the Fathers of the Church, both Greek and Latin, on one side; on the other, the most learned theologians and erudite historians; and let us put the Bible in the middle for all to see. Now listen not to what I will say to you – for I have already told you that I do not want to speak for myself or decide on the matter – but listen to what these great minds have to tell you, they who are beacons in the Church of God to give light to others so that they will not miss the road to heaven. In this manner, guided by the triple light of faith, authority and reason, we will be able to resolve this grave matter with certainty.

---

What did Our Lord answer the curious man in the Gospel who asked Him, “Lord, is it only a few to be saved?” Did He keep silence? Did He answer haltingly? Did He conceal His thought for fear of frightening the crowd? No. Questioned by only one, He addresses all of those present. He says to them: “You ask Me if there are only few who are saved?” Here is My answer: “Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.” Who is speaking here? It is the Son of God, Eternal Truth, who on another occasion says even more clearly, “Many are called, but few are chosen.” He does not say that all are called and that out of all men, few are chosen, but that many are called; which means, as Saint Gregory explains, that out of all men, many are called to the True Faith, but out of them few are saved. Brothers, these are the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Are they clear? They are true. Tell me now if it is possible for you to have faith in your heart and not tremble.

 

[Spirithound]

Oh, horrible abuses of such a great sacrament! One rids himself of his sins to calm his remorse…another discloses them out of habit.

Perhaps I’m misinterpreting the Saint’s intent, but aren’t these valid reasons to confess?

[T]he greater portion of Catholic adults die in their beds armed with the sacraments of the Church, therefore most adult Catholics are saved? You must say exactly the opposite. Most Catholic adults confess badly at death, therefore most of them are damned… a dying person who has not confessed well when he was in good health will have an even harder time doing so when he is in bed with a heavy heart, an unsteady head, a muddled mind; when he is opposed in many ways by still-living objects, by still-fresh occasions, by adopted habits, and above all by devils who are seeking every means to cast him into hell.

Similarly (as i may be misinterpreting again), isn’t forgetting sins not itself sufficient to invalidate the sacrament?

 

[PapaBennySix]

Similarly (as i may be misinterpreting again), isn’t forgetting sins not itself sufficient to invalidate the sacrament?

Forgetting doesn’t invalidate, but years of putting off confessing that sin, evolving into just forgetting about it, or being so distracted by the devils there at your hour of death… does God cut you a break after a lot of bad confessions/communions… we are supposed to treat confession as if it could be our last. Again, bad Catholics are the worst people in the world. Better that we shouldn’t have been born if we are going to just take the most precious thing in the world, the Catholic faith, and throw it back in the face of God our creator.

Ave Maria, pray that we are well prepared for our hour of death.

 

[strngrnrth]

Jesus says that whoever brings a cup of cold water to a disciple because he is a disciple will surely not lose his reward. Most Catholics and other Christians do that or the equivalent pretty often, from waht I’ve seen. And we know we are saved if we confess our sins, which most Catholics do, so I think most Catholics and many Protestants are saved. I think the many who try to pass through the door and can’t are the ones who never believe that Jesus is the Messiah or that they have sinned, because of pride or fear of social disapproval etc.

 

[Cara_Serrano]

Theologically, I think there is some middle ground between squeezing throught the narrow gate and going directly to hell. I’m fairly certain I have confessed all my mortal sins and all the venial ones I am aware of. For my unconfessed venial sins, I trust in God’s mercy and assume I’ll be paying for them if not on earth then in purgatory. I don’t believe I go to hell for them.

If this is not good Catholic theology, somebody correct me (quickly!) before I get hit by a bus before my next Confession.

 

[CathFaith1]

He says to them: “You ask Me if there are only few who are saved?” Here is My answer: “Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.”

The topic of being saved or being damned is usually an uncomfortable one. And rightly so.

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with *fear and trembling.” *
**Philippians 2:12 **

We have been given a clear indication that sins of ommision (Matt 25) or sins of commission (Rev 22) both are equally deadly.

Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
And these will go off to eternal punishment
Matt 25;45,46

Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the unchaste, the murderers, the idol-worshipers, and all who love and practice deceit
Rev 22:15

And since we never know if today is the last day on earth, it’s good to keep in mind the timeless message

"Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.
Rev 22:12

Yet, with the Holy Sacraments, prayer and perseverance to live a just life we can have hope.

 

[rwoehmke]

It seems the assumption that the narrow gate or way is just that and difficult to get through. I am thinking that it is the person of Jesus himself who is the narrow gate, who is the narrow way, etc. We have been taught that no one can be saved except through Jesus who has accomplished our salvation on the cross and that we are only required to repent our sins and accept that salvation. Not accept in the sense of OSAS, but in making use of whatever helps Jesus leads us to.

 

[coda]

It seems the assumption that the narrow gate or way is just that and difficult to get through. I am thinking that it is the person of Jesus himself who is the narrow gate, who is the narrow way, etc. We have been taught that no one can be saved except through Jesus who has accomplished our salvation on the cross and that we are only required to repent our sins and accept that salvation. Not accept in the sense of OSAS, but in making use of whatever helps Jesus leads us to.

What Jesus meant by the ‘narrow’ path is quite clear to anyone who is whole-heartedly trying to root ALL sin out of their life… It is hard!!!.. You cant achieve a goal unless you persevere. I truly believe we are ONLY expected to do our best, and when we do less than that and fall, we should rise instantly and say “I’m sorry”. The hard part is training yourself to BE sorry. We cannot however, walk both paths, because both don’t lead to Jesus. Life is too short and death too unexpected to always choose what is EASY.

 

[mathematician]

What did Our Lord answer the curious man in the Gospel who asked Him, “Lord, is it only a few to be saved?” Did He keep silence? Did He answer haltingly? Did He conceal His thought for fear of frightening the crowd? No. Questioned by only one, He addresses all of those present. He says to them: “You ask Me if there are only few who are saved?” Here is My answer: “Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.” Who is speaking here? It is the Son of God, Eternal Truth, who on another occasion says even more clearly, “Many are called, but few are chosen.” He does not say that all are called and that out of all men, few are chosen, but that many are called; which means, as Saint Gregory explains, that out of all men, many are called to the True Faith, but out of them few are saved. Brothers, these are the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Are they clear? They are true. Tell me now if it is possible for you to have faith in your heart and not tremble.

A sermon like that can cut both ways. It can carry the message that God is to be approached with the utmost seriousness, but it can also encourage a kind of legalism. Boxes can be ticked off as people try and reassure themselves that they satisfy all the criteria needed to be counted amongst “the saved”.

 

[Phil12123]

It seems the assumption that the narrow gate or way is just that and difficult to get through. I am thinking that it is the person of Jesus himself who is the narrow gate, who is the narrow way, etc. We have been taught that no one can be saved except through Jesus who has accomplished our salvation on the cross and that we are only required to repent our sins and accept that salvation.

(Emphasis added.)

**True, very true.

There seems to be in scripture two conflicting ideas. On the one hand, we see, “Strive to enter…” and “work out your own salvation…” both of which seem to speak of a great deal of effort that needs to be put forth to reach heaven. And the numbers are given by Jesus Himself… “many” who are on the broad road that leads to destruction, and “few” on the narrow way that leads to life.

Then, on the other hand, there is the other idea that eternal life and being saved is the gift of God, something He gives and we receive, free and without any effort on our part other than to simply accept it by faith (repenting of our sins and believing Jesus paid for them all at Calvary and rose again).

Perhaps we can reconcile the two in this way. We must initially receive His gift of salvation as such, without anything being added of our own works or efforts, so that it is ALL of Him and not of ourselves, lest we be adding to His work of redemption and thereby rejecting it as insufficient to pay for our sins. Simple repentance and faith, nothing more. But thereafter, after receiving eternal life, which is to say, the life of God into our souls, we must allow Him to work in us, “working in you what is well pleasing in His sight” (Heb. 13:21; Phil. 2:13). That requires effort, namely, yielding completely to Him and fighting the world, the flesh, and the devil, so that His will (and work) will be done in our lives, and not our will (our flesh, etc.) be done.

That gives all the glory to God in accomplishing our salvation and, in effect, putting us on the right road that leads to (and gives us) life, and yet shows us our own responsibility in allowing Him to have complete control of our lives so that we live a life pleasing to Him.

What do you think?**

 

[PapaBennySix]

(Emphasis added.)

**True, very true.

There seems to be in scripture two conflicting ideas. On the one hand, we see, “Strive** to enter…” and “work out your own salvation…” both of which seem to speak of a great deal of effort that needs to be put forth to reach heaven. And the numbers are given by Jesus Himself… “many” who are on the broad road that leads to destruction, and “few” on the narrow way that leads to life.

Then, on the other hand, there is the other idea that eternal life and being saved is the gift of God, something He gives and we receive, free and without any effort on our part other than to simply accept it by faith (repenting of our sins and believing Jesus paid for them all at Calvary and rose again).

Perhaps we can reconcile the two in this way. We must initially receive His gift of salvation as such, without anything being added of our own works or efforts, so that it is ALL of Him and not of ourselves, lest we be adding to His work of redemption and thereby rejecting it as insufficient to pay for our sins. Simple repentance and faith, nothing more. But thereafter, after receiving eternal life, which is to say, the life of God into our souls, we must allow Him to work in us, “working in you what is well pleasing in His sight” (Heb. 13:21; Phil. 2:13). That requires effort, namely, yielding completely to Him and fighting the world, the flesh, and the devil, so that His will (and work) will be done in our lives, and not our will (our flesh, etc.) be done.

That gives all the glory to God in accomplishing our salvation and, in effect, putting us on the right road that leads to (and gives us) life, and yet shows us our own responsibility in allowing Him to have complete control of our lives so that we live a life pleasing to Him.

What do you think?

Yes, we must fight now that we have put on the New man. If you put on the new man, and then grow lukewarm, that’s where you are going to get one of the lowest places in hell, because you knew better, and yet still did not fight for the King. (by spreading the gospel by a good example, having a horror of sin, and being charitable to those who are in need around us, etc.)

 

[Phil12123]

Yes, we must fight now that we have put on the New man. If you put on the new man, and then grow lukewarm, that’s where you are going to get one of the lowest places in hell, because you knew better, and yet still did not fight for the King. (by spreading the gospel by a good example, having a horror of sin, and being charitable to those who are in need around us, etc.)

Well, it would seem like not fighting for the king, not doing those things you mention, i.e., sins of omission, would mean we would get no rewards for doing them, but Jesus paid even for those sins at Calvary. We don’t gain heaven by doing anything, since that is a free gift, so we cannot lose it by not doing anything. But we would simply not be rewarded, not get whatever reward we would have gotten had we done those things.

Romans 4:
3. For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4. A worker’s wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due.
5. But when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
6. So also David declares the blessedness of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7. "Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered.
8. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not record ."

So, it is extremely important to distinguish what we get by faith (=His free gift of eternal life) and what we get by our service for Him, i.e., for “fighting for the King” (=rewards in heaven). We don’t get to heaven as a reward for serving Him, or it would not be a gift purchased for us at Calvary, but dependent on something we do. Consider all that those people did who, at the judgment, pleaded those things to no avail:

Matthew 7:
22. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' 23. Then I will declare to them solemnly, I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers."

They were trusting in their deeds, all that they did in His name, but He declares nevertheless, “I never knew you.” They weren’t trusting in what HE did for them at Calvary but in what they did. They were hoping for heaven as a reward for that, rather than simply trusting in Christ’s atoning work of redemption to pay for their sins and make them no longer an “evildoer.” They did not receive His gift, as none of us will who try to earn it rather than simply receive it by faith.

 

[Static]

You stated:

So, it is extremely important to distinguish what we get by faith
…

If you get something by faith, are you not trying to earn it ?​

You quoted:

Matthew 7:
22. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' 23. Then I will declare to them solemnly, I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers."
…

Read verse 21. You left that out. Why ? It seems by what you seem to believe is condemned in this verse, it clearly states that just by believing ( calling upon the name of the Lord ) that doesn’t mean eternal life, because we are told we have to do the will of God the Father. What is His will ? I’m sure you are very familiar with Eph 2:8f, well, the will of the Father is stated in verse 10.

Don’t get me wrong, when we first receive sanctifying grace ,there is no type of works, whether works of the law or good works that can earn one eternal life. The problem is that people confuse works of the law as being the same as good works. A good example exists in Rom 3:28. This verse only excludes works of the law ( ceremonial laws, temple rituals ) not hope, love, charity, patience or anything else.​

Believing is a work. In Jn 6:28f, the question was asked on what to do to accomlplish the works of God. Jesus asnswered, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent .”

On judgement day, what are we going to be judged on, faith ? There are many verses that state how we are to be judged, a start would be to read Mt 25:31-46 in the separation of the sheep from the goats.

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )

 

[geekborj]

You stated:

So, it is extremely important to distinguish what we get by faith
…

If you get something by faith, are you not trying to earn it ?​

You quoted:

Matthew 7:
22. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' 23. Then I will declare to them solemnly, I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers."
…

Read verse 21. You left that out. Why ? It seems by what you seem to believe is condemned in this verse, it clearly states that just by believing ( calling upon the name of the Lord ) that doesn’t mean eternal life, because we are told we have to do the will of God the Father. What is His will ? I’m sure you are very familiar with Eph 2:8f, well, the will of the Father is stated in verse 10.

Don’t get me wrong, when we first receive sanctifying grace ,there is no type of works, whether works of the law or good works that can earn one eternal life. The problem is that people confuse works of the law as being the same as good works. A good example exists in Rom 3:28. This verse only excludes works of the law ( ceremonial laws, temple rituals ) not hope, love, charity, patience or anything else.​

Believing is a work. In Jn 6:28f, the question was asked on what to do to accomlplish the works of God. Jesus asnswered, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent .”

On judgement day, what are we going to be judged on, faith ? There are many verses that state how we are to be judged, a start would be to read Mt 25:31-46 in the separation of the sheep from the goats.

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )

Hello Static,

Your explanations above about works and faith are alright until you missed the importance of works. I think you missed the idea that one can never be sure that he is saved UNLESS GOD SAYS SO.

Try reading: catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

God bless us all and continue to guide us to salvation,

 

[Static]

geekborj stated:

Hello Static,

Your explanations above about works and faith are alright until you missed the importance of works. I think you missed the idea that one can never be sure that he is saved UNLESS GOD SAYS SO.​

I have not had a chance to read the site that you provided for me to read yet, but I guess I am too stupid to understand the point you are trying to make. If I downplayed works in my comments, that was not my intention. My point being that, as stated in
Jas 2:26, just as in physical life the body without a spirit is dead so is faith without works. Believing or faith alone ( some count them as meaning the same) is foreign to the scriptures. I guess we can say that this belief is a tradition of men.

I just tried to touch on what was quoted by another poster without getting to lengthy. Sorry if it seemed otherwise. We can have a moral certainty of our salvation but not a metaphysical assurance, is this not God’s business ? He is the only one who knows our heart , is He not ?

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )

 

[Static]

ggekborj said:

Try reading: catholic.com/library/Assu…_Salvation.asp
…

Okay, I read this site provided, but my little pea brain does not register the point that you were tryin to make to me about the importance of works. I have no problem with what was stated. I even used alot of the same verses myself when trying to explain that a faith alone salvation is foreign to the scriptures. Maybe a clarification on what you are trying to tell me would be in order because I guess I’m not smart enough to understand, sorry.
( don’t make it to long now, because my attention span is weak )

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )

 

[Static]

Wanted to clear up what was stated about Jas 2:26. I fell short of what I was saying by being a speedy gonzalez. I meant to say as in the physical life, the body without a spirit is dead so it is for eternal life that faith without works is dead. Sorry.

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )

 

[Phil12123]

You stated:

So, it is extremely important to distinguish what we get by faith
…

If you get something by faith, are you not trying to earn it ?

No, you are simply receiving it. A gift cannot be earned or it is no longer a gift; instead, it is a reward or something given because you did something to deserve it. Do you not see the difference between “wages” and “gift” in Romans 6:23? You earn or work for, and therefore deserve, wages, but a gift is given by the Giver purely by grace, without the recipient deserving it or doing anything to earn it; he simply receives it.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (New Revised Standard with Apocrypha). Or as the New Jerusalem Bible with Apocrypha puts it, "For the wage paid by sin is death; the gift freely given by God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

You quoted:

Matthew 7:
22. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' 23. Then I will declare to them solemnly, I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers."
…

Read verse 21. You left that out. Why ? It seems by what you seem to believe is condemned in this verse, it clearly states that just by believing ( calling upon the name of the Lord ) that doesn’t mean eternal life, because we are told we have to do the will of God the Father. What is His will ? I’m sure you are very familiar with Eph 2:8f, well, the will of the Father is stated in verse 10.

But are you saying those at the Judgment had NOT done “the will of the Father”? They said they prophesied in His name, and they drove out demons in His name, and they did many mighty deeds in His name. Jesus never disputes that. He simply says, “I never knew you, depart from me, you evildoers.” Why? (if not for the reason I gave)

Don’t get me wrong, when we first receive sanctifying grace, there is no type of works, whether works of the law or good works that can earn one eternal life. The problem is that people confuse works of the law as being the same as good works. A good example exists in Rom 3:28. This verse only excludes works of the law ( ceremonial laws, temple rituals ) not hope, love, charity, patience or anything else.

**The problem I see with that statement is that you say you receive “sanctifying grace” with no type of works because there are no type of works that can earn one eternal life, but then you turn around and end up adding one type of works (hope, love, charity, etc.) to do what? Maintain possession of eternal life? Or in some way to end up still having eternal life when you die? At any point from initial reception until entrance into heaven, if you have any works in the mix that is necessary to receive or keep or maintain eternal life, you no longer have eternal life as a free gift of God, which Romans 6:23 says it is.

Now, if the works you wish to add are produced after receiving * salvation and are not required to keep your salvation, then they are consistent with Eph. 2:10, and will result in rewards IN heaven, not something necessary to get TO heaven.*

Believing is a work. In Jn 6:28f, the question was asked on what to do to accomlplish the works of God. Jesus answered, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent .”

**Believing is a work of God, not part of “good works” as that expression is used to contrast with faith. Otherwise, Eph. 2:8-9 would be self-contradictory. “For by grace through faith… not of works, lest any man should boast.” If faith is part of “works” then we have a contradiction. Faith and works are contrasted. **

On judgment day, what are we going to be judged on, faith ? There are many verses that state how we are to be judged, a start would be to read Mt 25:31-46 in the separation of the sheep from the goats.

The believer has his works judged, as to what sort they are, resulting in rewards or no rewards depending on the eternal value of those works (illustrated by “gold, silver, precious stones” vs. “wood, hay, stubble”) (1 Cor. 3:11-15). The nonbeliever also has his works judged, to determine degree of punishment in hell (Rev. 20:11-15).

 

[Phil12123]

The problem is that people confuse works of the law as being the same as good works. A good example exists in Rom 3:28. This verse only excludes works of the law ( ceremonial laws, temple rituals ) not hope, love, charity, patience or anything else.

I don’t think that is the problem. The problem is that people think they need to add to Christ’s perfect Work of redemption their own works, of whatever sort those works are. The Pharisees tried to keep the law and over the years hundreds of laws were added to “the Law” to supposedly help people know how to keep it. The “good works” you mention are not that much different and can sometimes be considered “keeping rules” or “doing the right thing” all of which is fine but can never be added to His perfect Work as a necessary requirement to enter heaven. Otherwise, we have Christ PLUS our own efforts as the ultimate reason we enter heaven. No one will get in who is not trusting 100% in Christ’s Work. Trust just 1% in your own efforts and He will say to you, “I never knew you, depart from me, you evildoer.” Jesus has to be your 100% Savior. If you try to “help” Him out and be just 1% your own savior, you will never see heaven, no matter what sort of works you do that you are trusting in to help get you into heaven.

 

[Phil12123]

Let me give an illustration. I was speaking with a lady who had tremendous guilt because she couldn’t quit smoking. She actually thought she would not go to heaven because she smoked. I tried to assure her that, though not smoking would be good for her physical health and for her Christian testimony, no one is excluded from heaven because they smoke. I told her if stopping smoking would get her into heaven, then she has two saviors—Jesus died for her sins and rose again PLUS she stopped smoking. So, if she is truly trusting in Jesus 100% to save her, she’s saved, whether she smokes or not. If she has received His gift of salvation, she is saved. Period.