Most Catholics saved?

[graceandglory]

BRB

. When you quoted this passage from Jn 4:18 - The Samaritan woman @ well was on her way to having husband # 5. She was a habitual adulteress. So were the men who enjoyed her company.
…
**
Is this not refering to gods (5) - 2 Kgs 17:24-34, not actual physical husbands ?**

I have never heard this interpretation before, and I have read the passage in many study bibles, and have been Catholic for half my life and evangelical for the other half. As Catholics we read the story of the Samaritan woman every year on the 3rd Sunday of Lent, it’s one of my favorite scripture passages. The text seems pretty clear and straightforward about what the woman’s sin was.

I’m curious to know where you heard that interpretation. I googled for alternative interpretations, but couldn’t find any.

Thanks!

 

[BRB]

.
…

Is this not refering to gods (5) - 2 Kgs 17:24-34, not actual physical husbands ?
///////////////////

Secondly, you are aware that this is not my original post, right ? I only redid it changing a smoking habit to adultery because of what OSAS believe, which is, there is nothing that one could do to lose their salvation because Jesus forgave them past,present,future sins at the cross. He knew that they were going to do this sin & he forgave them 2000 years ago so it doesn’t matter if they do it or not they have been forgiven & they don’t have to ask forgiveness for something that Jesus already forgave them for, if that makes any sense.

)

I recalled her having had 4 … it was actually 5 husbands, and working towards #6. She told her village friends that Christ had told her all things from her past. Thus, I think its to be taken literally and not as allegory.

All the scriptures I find in Gospels stress the need to break our cycle of sinning. If our Salvation was a carte blanche ‘Not guilty’ concept for later sins in this life … why the strong warnings from Christ and Apostles to walk the Christian walk ? Anyone who claims they are unable to break certains sins … are denying the Power of Christ for them. “I/we can do all things in Christ, who strengthens me/us” … Paul.

I know back when I thought I held a ‘Ticket to Heaven’ … I sure felt no strong compulsion to worry about my sin habits. Many Protestants [and no doubt many Catholics] … don’t see the Mandatory Call of the Lord to renew our lives each day via H.S.

We soon become lost Sheep w/o Christian Discipleship in our lives. Continuing with Mortal Sins in our lives is not a viable option for a True Believer. The early Apostles would quickly tell the new believers to either have their lives conform to that expected of a Christian … or soon thereafter those who didn’t were expelled from the Church.

Cultural Christianity [with one foot in the Church and the other in the World] … is not to be tolerated for long. We are either with Christ 100%, …or back in the World.

 

[BRB]

We begin our Christian life with baptism. But that isn’t the end. And we are still in need of God’s grace that come to us through the sacraments. We avail ourselves of confession, to confess our sins, and receive forgiveness from God, as well as receive sanctifying graces to go and sin no more. We receive the Eucharist, which also comes with sanctifying or (holy-fying) grace for the Christian. All of our sacraments administer sanctifying grace, without which, would be a very sorry state indeed.

We are not lone ranger Christians here.

Exactly …

So many come to the Gospel message with great joy and inspiration …only to shortly fall away, when they experience what Christianity demands of us.

Sadly much of the blame falls upon those mature Christians who run off to make their next convert … and don’t provide adequate support to those whom they have shared the Good News. The Parable of the Sower … seed falling on various soils, with growth of Cockleburs, etc … is the explanation of what tragedy can befall a new believer.

Is it any wonder that Christ instituted the Eucharist for us, and why it should be received at least on weekly basis ? So many Protestant churches only offer it on quarterly or even less frequent basis. Church of Christ, Lutheran Synod, and a few others offer it each Sunday. Baptist Churches put all their marbles on Baptism, and usually only offer Eucharist on quarterly basis … believing it only a ‘symbolic rememberance’ event for believers.

Protestant believers … neglecting of the Eucharist is a serious error of your churches. Study this sacrament, to convince yourselves of its necessity for believers.

Become a Catholic, after some determined investigations … if for no other reason than to avail yourselves to the Eucharist on more frequent basis than you will ever see as Protestants.

Also, many Protestant Churches neglect Confirmation sacrament … again, a tragic loss for those who never receive.

Don’t assume you were BORN into the best Church for you. Investigate the early roots of Christianity … and let the H.S. guide you to the Universal solution.

 

[Phil12123]

Phil …

You are presenting the classic Protestant apologetics — that applys to both Protestant and Catholic ‘Initial’ salvation. Very well covered by you.

Sadly, too often Protestants & Catholics] allow the salvation gospel to become their 'Once & forever ticket" to heaven. And soon return back to the world with little concern for bearing the cross and fruits of spirit. I bought into this hook, line, and sinker … for many years as Protestant. Was happy to just quote the ‘Once Saved Always Scriptures’ w/o seeing any compelling need to desire fruits/works that come after our salvation miracle.

Over time, we must face all the other scriptures that call for sacrifice / dedication to Christ and fellowman. The Catholic theology has opened my eyes to a more realistic interpretation of the other scriptures … those I used to read and have no good explanation for.

In completeness, give us the other scriptures by Apostles and Christ on this topic … with full explanation thereof.

It would be better if you yourself gave me “all the other scriptures” that you feel I am neglecting and you want a “full explanation” of. I hope you don’t think I entirely discount works or good works or acts of dedication to Christ or service to our fellowman. I am simply emphasizing that none of those works are to be trusted in or relied upon as helping us get into heaven, as if God’s free gift of salvation needed to be purchased by us, to get it or to keep it or to maintain it. A free gift is a free gift is a free gift. That cannot be emphasized too much, though you apparently think I am doing just that. I simply want everyone to see and understand and rejoice in that truth that God, in Christ, has done it all. “Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe. Sin had left a crimson stain, He washed it white as snow.” All the glory is due HIM, not me or any good deeds I can muster, even if it is claimed that those deeds are done in the power of the H.S. We must never, ever, think that we need to add to His perfect Work of redemption any of our own good works to complete the job HE did, so we can enter heaven. Scripture shows, for the believer, the importance of being “zealous of good works” (Titus 2:14) and for the believer to “maintain good works” (Titus 3:8,14), but that, IMHO, is all part of being the obedient Christian that, incidentally, may ultimately win rewards IN heaven, not help anyone get TO heaven. Do you see the difference?

 

[Phil12123]

Phil said :
So He suffered for our sins. Is He not thereby paying for them, taking our punishment, dying in our place, the just for the unjust, to bring us to God ?
////////////////////

Where is Jesus now? Where should He be if He took our punishment away from us for good? Why do we punish our children or the courts, criminals? Don’t they understand what Jesus did for mankind that we don’t have to do what has already been taken care of? Why would anyone have to go to hell if He did the punishment for the whole world ?

Static, I will try to answer each question you asked above. I also am limited in time, so please forgive me if I don’t respond to every point you make in all your posts.

Where is Jesus now? At the right hand of God, making intercession for us believers, who still sin and therefore need it. Read 1 John 1:8 to 2:1, written to believers.

Where should He be if He took our punishment away from us for good? Right where He is, if His one, once-for-all payment for our sins atoned for those sins, removed them, and satisfied the Father’s demands that all sin be punished if not forgiven.

Why do we punish our children or the courts, criminals? Don’t they understand what Jesus did for mankind that we don’t have to do what has already been taken care of? We punish our children to correct them and to show them their bad behavior was not acceptable and has consequences, and we hope thereby that they will want to avoid such behavior in the future. We punish criminals to make them pay for their crimes and to remove them from society to protect society from any future crimes they may commit. Jesus’ payment for sins, whether crimes or whatever, has to do with God not man, satisfying the demands of a holy God not the demands of a society of sinful men.

Why would anyone have to go to hell if He did the punishment for the whole world? He paid for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2), but that payment is not effective for anyone who rejects it. The efficacy of His payment is received by sinners by repentance and faith and is not received by drowning sinners who reject it and in effect say to God, I don’t want your life-saver, I will do it my way. The result for them is, they will be doing their own payment for all their sins for all eternity, after rejecting His payment.

 

[BRB]

**It would be better if you yourself gave me “all the other scriptures” that you feel I am neglecting and you want a “full explanation” of. **

Well, there are many … this will take awhile to cover in full. But, since our salvations depend on proper understanding / application of New Testament theology / Apostolic tradition … lets take all the time we need.

Lets start with some often overlooked Pauline salvation scripture from Romans. Give us your interpretation of Romans 8:4-17. And also, Romans 8:36 & Romans 11:21-22 & Romans 12:1-2
& Romans 12:9-13

 

[Phil12123]

Well, there are many … this will take awhile to cover in full. But, **since our salvations depend on proper understanding / application **of New Testament theology / Apostolic tradition … lets take all the time we need.

Hmmm… sounds like you think your salvation is an almost intellectual pursuit… understanding …theology…tradition… To me, our salvation depends on Jesus and what He did for us at Calvary, and our appropriating that by repentance and faith. The Gospel is simple enough that anyone can understand it who can see they are a sinner in need of a Savior and that Jesus is that Savior.

Lets start with some often overlooked Pauline salvation scripture from Romans. Give us your interpretation of Romans 8:4-17. And also, Romans 8:36 & Romans 11:21-22 & Romans 12:1-2
& Romans 12:9-13

BTW, before we get into all that, do you have any basic rules of interpretation that you follow, since I don’t think the Magisterium has published a verse-by-verse commentary that covers Genesis through Revelation that gives you the official interpretation of the above verses or any others. Lacking that, what authority do you have to determine the proper interpretation of any verse?

 

[kam1953f]

Hey, folks - If I chime in on this faith/works debate, will I be intruding? No matter what you think, please consider me the shirt-tail cousin your mother forced you to invite to your birthday party. To disinvite me would be a conscious act of cruelty, right?I]But if I get too obnoxious, you can call on Aunt Helen to take her brats home.

(Uh, right??? Well, DUH. Who has the time to study when the student loans have to be paid. Answer: Precious few, and mostly the babies born with silver spoons in their mouths… Oh, please…You really don’t want to get me started on that!)

The USA is a country of many faiths, whose original faiths back in the “old country” (sometimes Protestant and sometimes Catholic, seldom anything else) persecuted people under the banner of “God wills it,” or whatever.

Myself (at this moment in my life and in my walk with God), I see the classical Protestant/modern Catholic dichotomy on this subject as being only about a moon’s breath apart. Most of the disagreement hinges on definitions, and the grease for those hinges is both pride and a tradition of 1000 years plus or minus separation of the RCC from the Orthodox Catholic Church.

*Ex: (An amalgam of Pauline writings) He who has faith and confesses with his lips that Jesus is Lord has eternal salvation.

Contra Ex: (An amalgam of writings by other Church Fathers) Without works, belief is empty of value, because even Satan and his minions believe, and tremble.*

But let’s pause here. Definitions are all important: Does “faith” in Catholic theology mean the same thing as “faith” in Protestant theology? I think that RCs define faith more in terms of belief, and Protestants define faith as an integration of Jesus’ teaching into one’s heart and life.

Yeoww! What a delicate differentiation on this subject!

You theologians who are listening…While I studied through my solid 12 years of parochial education, I learned that Jesus “did it all,” in anticipation of man’s cooperation with grace,

God is a loving God, but He is also a just God. Therfore, there are a great many Protestants AND Catholics who need to be set straight on the issue. I mean, If faith alone (sola fide) is the case, the most obstinate sinner, post-Baptism, gets a free pass to heaven. And if our good works are all that is needed to work our way into heaven, then what (for Christ’s sake!) did Jesus do?

It’s just my opinion, but this is a rather false dichotomy. Let’s try to reduce it all to its ordinary parts – Many of you have better knowledge than mine. Let’s dissect this thing. We may all ultimately come to the same conclusions, but then we will know that THEY ARE OUR conclusions, and deal with them at that level.

Sound good?

Gosh, I’m rambling…Must be past my bedtime. (Looking at wristwatch) Uh, HOURS past my bedtime.

'Night, folks!

 

[BRB]

Hey, folks - If I chime in on this faith/works debate, will I be intruding? No matter what you think, please consider me the shirt-tail cousin your mother forced you to invite to your birthday party. To disinvite me would be a conscious act of cruelty, right?I]But if I get too obnoxious, you can call on Aunt Helen to take her brats home.

(!

Kam … by all means join in.

The topic is: Real Christianity

“faith alone” [free ticket to heaven] /////// Christ has paid penalty for ALL sins … even the future sins we commit /////// Christians forever free from the law, we are under New Testament ‘Grace’ … on basis of faith alone in Christ — when we made that Very First profession of faith ////// suffering with Christ – what’s that all about ? Christ suffered alone for us

                            vs

“faith” (step 1) supported by ongoing, daily “gracious works” @ direction of H.S. (step 2)

At least I think this is what Phil desires to expound upon. Phil can set up the ‘construct’ of question he desires to discuss. He can set the ground rules … for Bible version desired. I personally prefer the RSV, but NRSV if fine also.

It might actually be best to start a new thread … so as not to piggyback on another’s thread topic.

 

[BRB]

H The Gospel is simple enough that anyone can understand it who can see they are a sinner in need of a Savior and that Jesus is that Savior.

Well, one would think so … except you ask the question below //// which points up the need for H.S. / combined with personal study & reflection to develop consistent interpretation of scripture.

** Lacking that, what authority do you** have to determine the proper interpretation of any verse?

 

[Cara_Serrano]

Well, there are many … this will take awhile to cover in full. But, since our salvations depend on proper understanding / application of New Testament theology / Apostolic tradition … lets take all the time we need.

Our salvation DOES NOT depend on “proper understanding/application of New Testrament theology…” Baptized babies who die before the age of reason go directly to heaven without ever understanding any theology!

 

[Phil12123]

BRB;3506432:

Well, there are many … this will take awhile to cover in full. But, since our salvations depend on proper understanding / application of New Testament theology / Apostolic tradition … lets take all the time we need.

Our salvation DOES NOT depend on “proper understanding/application of New Testrament theology…” Baptized babies who die before the age of reason go directly to heaven without ever understanding any theology!

Good point, Cara. Actually, I would go a step further and say, ALL babies who die before the age of reason go directly to heaven without ever understanding any theology!

 

[Phil12123]

The topic is: Real Christianity

“faith alone” [free ticket to heaven] /////// Christ has paid penalty for ALL sins … even the future sins we commit /////// Christians forever free from the law, we are under New Testament ‘Grace’ … on basis of faith alone in Christ — when we made that Very First profession of faith ////// suffering with Christ – what’s that all about ? Christ suffered alone for us

                            vs

“faith” (step 1) supported by ongoing, daily “gracious works” @ direction of H.S. (step 2)

At least I think this is what Phil desires to expound upon. Phil can set up the ‘construct’ of question he desires to discuss. He can set the ground rules … for Bible version desired. I personally prefer the RSV, but NRSV if fine also.

**Yeah, I guess that sounds like what we’re talking about. I don’t have any insistence on any one translation. I like to see what they all say, perhaps to get a better sense of the meaning of a passage. When in doubt, look at the Greek and how it is used elsewhere in the N.T., especially by the same writer. Context, of course, is perhaps the most important consideration, along with using exegesis (getting out of a verse or passage what is in it) rather than eisegesis (reading into a verse or passage something that was not there to begin with). Also, when you have two passages with what appear to be contradictory statements, you must allow the clearer to rule over the less clear. Unambiguous must control over ambiguous.

In relation to the last idea, if eternal life and salvation and getting to heaven is a free gift, and “free gift” is clear and unambiguous, we cannot change it into a non-gift requiring our payment of anything (works) in spite of passages that exhort us to good works. We must conclude that the good works are not to be done to earn us the “free gift” or make us deserving of it or of keeping it or of maintaining it, but are to be done for other reasons, such as to demonstrate our saving faith or to simply please the Giver out of our gratitude for the “unspeakable gift” (2 Cor. 9:15) He has given us.**

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

After going though all of this, the one thing that pops into my mind is the Feast of Divine Mercy we celebrated last Sunday. This Feast was approved for the Universal Church at the directive of Pope John Paul II. St. Faustina, the first saint canonized in this century reveals in her diary that Jesus said, “I desire Mercy, not Justice”. Yes, we are to trust in God’s mercy. NOT PRESUME. Part of that trust is confession, a firm purpose of amendment, mass and Communion. MY JESUS, I TRUST IN YOU…
Deacon Ed B

 

[Phil12123]

After going though all of this, the one thing that pops into my mind is the Feast of Divine Mercy we celebrated last Sunday. This Feast was approved for the Universal Church at the directive of Pope John Paul II. St. Faustina, the first saint canonized in this century reveals in her diary that Jesus said, “I desire Mercy, not Justice”. Yes, we are to trust in God’s mercy. NOT PRESUME. Part of that trust is confession, a firm purpose of amendment, mass and Communion. MY JESUS, I TRUST IN YOU…
Deacon Ed B

Actually, she misquoted Jesus; He did not say that. Check out Matt. 9:13 and 12:7.
That said, we can trust in all of God’s promises, including any that promise us mercy, grace, salvation, whatever. To trust in His promises is not presuming anything except that He will keep His Word when we meet any conditions attached to those promises.

 

[Phil12123]

After going though all of this, the one thing that pops into my mind is the Feast of Divine Mercy we celebrated last Sunday. This Feast was approved for the Universal Church at the directive of Pope John Paul II. St. Faustina, the first saint canonized in this century reveals in her diary that Jesus said, “I desire Mercy, not Justice”. Yes, we are to trust in God’s mercy. NOT PRESUME. Part of that trust is confession, a firm purpose of amendment, mass and Communion. MY JESUS, I TRUST IN YOU…
Deacon Ed B

One other thing that popped into my mind… Are you trusting in Jesus, or are you trusting in “confession, a firm purpose of amendment, mass and Communion”? Is it 99% in Jesus and 1% in the rest? Ah oh… we may have a problem.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Actually, she misquoted Jesus; He did not say that. Check out Matt. 9:13 and 12:7.
That said, we can trust in all of God’s promises, including any that promise us mercy, grace, salvation, whatever. To trust in His promises is not presuming anything except that He will keep His Word when we meet any conditions attached to those promises.

What I quoted was from her diary which has an imprimatur and nihil obstat. She is quoting what Jesus said to her in an apparition. I can see by your comments that you have not read her diary and are not knowledgeable about the Divine Mercy devotion. . I am part of an official cenicle of Divine Mercy for my Archdiocese where we study the diary, with the Catholic Catechism and Scripture as they relate with the diary passages.
This is for 2 to 2 1/2 hours every week. This, in an effort to spread the devotion to the Divine Mercy of Jesus.

You would do well to know about this devotion, before you question it. As to where my trust is, I will simply ask you to reread the last sentence in my last post. That said, I really do not know where you are coming from with your comments. What are you aiming at.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Perhaps I’m misinterpreting the Saint’s intent, but aren’t these valid reasons to confess?

Similarly (as i may be misinterpreting again), isn’t forgetting sins not itself sufficient to invalidate the sacrament?

**It’s amusing to see that sermon being posted up again - if he’s trying to sow despair, he’s doing a good job of it. **​

---

The sermon comes from a time when the pastoral practice of absolution was a bone of very great contention. Confessors were divided into several schools of thought:

• Laxists
• Rigourists
• Probabilists
• Probabiliorists
• Equiprobabilists****
  **Which was rather rough on the laity. Matters were further complicated by Jansenism in Italy, which its own effects on the use of the sacraments; if the preacher quoted were not a canonised saint, he might easily pass for one of them. **

---

**So the answer to both questions is, “It depends on which party of moralists you agree with”. **

 

[strngrnrth]

**It’s amusing to see that sermon being posted up again - if he’s trying to sow despair, he’s doing a good job of it. **​

---

The sermon comes from a time when the pastoral practice of absolution was a bone of very great contention. Confessors were divided into several schools of thought:

• Laxists
• Rigourists
• Probabilists
• Probabiliorists
• Equiprobabilists****
  **Which was rather rough on the laity. Matters were further complicated by Jansenism in Italy, which its own effects on the use of the sacraments; if the preacher quoted were not a canonised saint, he might easily pass for one of them. **

---

**So the answer to both questions is, “It depends on which party of moralists you agree with”. **

Is there a thread where these are described?

 

[Phil12123]

What I quoted was from her diary which has an imprimatur and nihil obstat. She is quoting what Jesus said to her in an apparition. I can see by your comments that you have not read her diary and are not knowledgeable about the Divine Mercy devotion.

That is correct, I have not read her diary and know nothing about “the Divine Mercy devotion.” The RCC has not always agreed with, or attested to, the authenticity of apparitions, so are you saying that, because her diary has an imprimatur and nihil obstat, the RCC has officially authenticated that apparition?

I am part of an official cenicle of Divine Mercy for my Archdiocese where we study the diary, with the Catholic Catechism and Scripture as they relate with the diary passages. This is for 2 to 2 1/2 hours every week. This, in an effort to spread the devotion to the Divine Mercy of Jesus.

**Interesting, and what form would this “devotion” take that you are spending so much time trying to spread?

BTW, I have never heard of a “cenicle” and could not find the word in any dictionary. Did you mean “cenacle”? Dictionary.com says that means, “the room where the Last Supper took place” or one of two other meanings, “1. A clique or circle, especially of writers. 2. A small dining room, usually on an upper floor.” So you must not mean “cenacle” either. Whatever it is, you say it is “official” so perhaps you can explain it and enlighten me in my ignorance.**

You would do well to know about this devotion, before you question it. As to where my trust is, I will simply ask you to reread the last sentence in my last post. That said, I really do not know where you are coming from with your comments. What are you aiming at.
Deacon Ed B

I thought what I said was clear enough. Simply put, are you trusting 100% in Jesus or are you trusting in Jesus PLUS something else, such as those things you mentioned?