Most Holy Family Monastary

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=jim28;3358353]You were saying that stating that the Chair of Peter is vacant is heresy. If it is not vacant then I guess it would be heresy or schism, but if it is vacant then it is not.
The opinion that you hold that it is not vacant is just that, an opinion. The fact is that the Chair is vacant, there is no heresy there, only charitableness by telling people that they must not follow an anti-pope.

:bigyikes:

No is not vacant the currant Pope and Vicar of Christ is Benedict XVI. So if as you have said to say so would be heresy then those who are doing so are heretics. I prefer to look at them as being mislead and ill informed. In need of prayer.

Again this is just opinion, backed by no facts.
There are a bunch of places where one can find many heresies by the anti-popes and the VII council.
Benedict is busy creating his own heresies and has no intention of fixing JPII’s.

:banghead:
Speaking of just giving opinion, I think you should look to yourself.

Opinion, opinion, opinion, opinion.
I pray that God will remove the blinders from the eyes of those who can’t see obvious heresy

Thanks

:coffeeread:

I see nothing in your post but opinions noting. As far as the Church and the Popes since the second Vatican counsel there have not been any heresy. Corrections to abuses that have arisen from a few ( when looking at the Church as a whole)are being done over the last 20 years.No heresy have come from Rome or the counsel.

 

[jim28]

:bigyikes:

No is not vacant the currant Pope and Vicar of Christ is Benedict XVI. So if as you have said to say so would be heresy then those who are doing so are heretics. I prefer to look at them as being mislead and ill informed. In need of prayer.

Benedict is not a pope. Those who are saying that he is a heretic are not heretics themselves. They are very much informed.:yawn:

:banghead:
Speaking of just giving opinion, I think you should look to yourself.

You should look to yourself. You are giving opinions.:yawn:

:coffeeread:

I see nothing in your post but opinions noting. As far as the Church and the Popes since the second Vatican counsel there have not been any heresy. Corrections to abuses that have arisen from a few ( when looking at the Church as a whole)are being done over the last 20 years.No heresy have come from Rome or the counsel.

You have nothing but opinions in your posts. There have been hundreds if not thousands of heresies since the inception of the council. No corrections have been made because it is what they believe. :yawn:

 

[NetNuncio]

I have no problem with sedevacantists reading and taking part in these forums…I think we can all agree that all are welcome. I’m even open to debating points. However, if you are going to equate those who accept the common Sede Vacante, such as that between John Paul II and Benedict XVI, with those who believe the Chair of Peter has been open since the death of Pius XII, the absolute asinine premise of that is not even worth talking about. We might as well debate the Real Presence or the ability of priests to forgive sins.

If you reject Benedict XVI as the supreme pontiff you are, while perhaps not a heretic, certainly a schismatic and are not in union with the Catholic Church. Period. End of Statement.

Adam

 

[jim28]

I have no problem with sedevacantists reading and taking part in these forums…I think we can all agree that all are welcome. I’m even open to debating points. However, if you are going to equate those who accept the common Sede Vacante, such as that between John Paul II and Benedict XVI, with those who believe the Chair of Peter has been open since the death of Pius XII, the absolute asinine premise of that is not even worth talking about. We might as well debate the Real Presence or the ability of priests to forgive sins.

If you reject Benedict XVI as the supreme pontiff you are, while perhaps not a heretic, certainly a schismatic and are not in union with the Catholic Church. Period. End of Statement.

Adam

That’s wierd, because because John XXIII and others say that Catholics share the same faith with the Orthodox and the Orthodox do not accept the popes either. Is he a heretic or schismatic, of course.

You are not unlike most others on this forum who like to spout their opinions and tell Sedes how “asinine” their positions are but please offer some proof that our positions are asinine.

thanks:extrahappy:

 

[Tomster]

That’s wierd, because because John XXIII and others say that Catholics share the same faith with the Orthodox and the Orthodox do not accept the popes either. Is he a heretic or schismatic, of course.

You are not unlike most others on this forum who like to spout their opinions and tell Sedes how “asinine” their positions are but please offer some proof that our positions are asinine.

thanks:extrahappy:

Easy !

The idea that the papacy could be vacant for an appreciable amount of time (excluding the obvious period between a pope’s death and the election of a new pontiff) goes against the scriptural teaching on the continuation of the Church. If indeed the pope is the earthly head of the Church - a point which sedevacantists agree - then the Church could not continue without that head. In Matthew 16:18, Jesus promised that the “gates of hell” would never overcome the Church He was to build on Peter. If indeed Pope John XXIII slipped into heresy, lost his place on the Chair of Peter and vacated the office, then the gates of hell DID overcome the Church. When Jesus promised to be with the Church “always to the close of the age,” He allowed no exceptions. There would never be a point when the Lord would fail to guide His Body, the Church.

Sedevcantism is essentially just another form of Protestantism, but with holy water and rosary beads. Those who do adhere to this position do so through personal interpretation of both Scripture and the teachings of the Church. They reject the current pope by misinterpreting the teachings of pontiffs past. Instead of listening to the magisterium of Christ’s Church, they’ve constructed their own teaching office - that of their own fallible opinions.

Thanks to Patrick Madrid - “Pope Fiction” pps.278-279 :extrahappy:

 

[DylanO]

In Matthew 16:18, Jesus promised that the “gates of hell” would never overcome the Church He was to build on Peter. If indeed Pope John XXIII slipped into heresy, lost his place on the Chair of Peter and vacated the office, then the gates of hell DID overcome the Church.

No, indefectibility (the promise of Christ to always be with His Church, and that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) means that the Church will, until the end of time, remain essentially what she is. The indefectibility of the Church requires that at least a remnant of the Church will exist until the end of the world, and that a true pope will never authoritatively teach error to the entire Church. It does not exclude antipopes posing as popes (as we’ve had numerous times in the past, even in Rome) or a counterfeit sect that reduces the adherents of the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the last days. This is precisely what is predicted to occur in the last days and what happened during the Arian crisis.
St. Athanasius: “Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”

Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16!
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “… we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)…”

Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter… because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”

St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.” (Intro. To Catena Aurea.)

Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell. Heretics are not members of the Church. That’s why a heretic could never be a pope. The gates of Hell heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ. It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics.
Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306: “Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church…”
There is not one teaching of the Catholic Church that can be quoted which is contrary to the fact that there is presently a counterfeit sect which has reduced the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the days of the Great Apostasy, which is presided over by antipopes who have falsely posed as popes. Those who assert that the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church assert that the Catholic Church officially endorses false religions and false doctrines. This is impossible and would mean that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Catholic Church.

 

[Tomster]

No, indefectibility (the promise of Christ to always be with His Church, and that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) means that the Church will, until the end of time, remain essentially what she is. The indefectibility of the Church requires that at least a remnant of the Church will exist until the end of the world, and that a true pope will never authoritatively teach error to the entire Church. It does not exclude antipopes posing as popes (as we’ve had numerous times in the past, even in Rome) or a counterfeit sect that reduces the adherents of the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the last days. This is precisely what is predicted to occur in the last days and what happened during the Arian crisis.
St. Athanasius: “Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”

Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16!
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “… we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)…”

Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter… because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”

St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.” (Intro. To Catena Aurea.)

Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell. Heretics are not members of the Church. That’s why a heretic could never be a pope. The gates of Hell heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ. It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics.
Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306: “Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church…”
There is not one teaching of the Catholic Church that can be quoted which is contrary to the fact that there is presently a counterfeit sect which has reduced the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the days of the Great Apostasy, which is presided over by antipopes who have falsely posed as popes. Those who assert that the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church assert that the Catholic Church officially endorses false religions and false doctrines. This is impossible and would mean that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Catholic Church.

Please focus on the last paragraph of my previous post. (something about your own fallible teachings . . . hmmmm)

 

[louey]

Easy !

The idea that the papacy could be vacant for an appreciable amount of time (excluding the obvious period between a pope’s death and the election of a new pontiff) goes against the scriptural teaching on the continuation of the Church. If indeed the pope is the earthly head of the Church - a point which sedevacantists agree - then the Church could not continue without that head. In Matthew 16:18, Jesus promised that the “gates of hell” would never overcome the Church He was to build on Peter. If indeed Pope John XXIII slipped into heresy, lost his place on the Chair of Peter and vacated the office, then the gates of hell DID overcome the Church. When Jesus promised to be with the Church “always to the close of the age,” He allowed no exceptions. There would never be a point when the Lord would fail to guide His Body, the Church.

Sedevcantism is essentially just another form of Protestantism, but with holy water and rosary beads. Those who do adhere to this position do so through personal interpretation of both Scripture and the teachings of the Church. They reject the current pope by misinterpreting the teachings of pontiffs past. Instead of listening to the magisterium of Christ’s Church, they’ve constructed their own teaching office - that of their own fallible opinions.

Thanks to Patrick Madrid - “Pope Fiction” pps.278-279 :extrahappy:

Your statements are said out of ignorance. If you knew and loved the Catholic faith, you would know that the truth does not change. The conciliar church is NOT the Catholic Church; it is just another sect; the worst and most evil, as it scandalizes the true Catholic faith. The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, as promised. The Catholic faith will remain forever, as it is divine, from God, of God and can not be destroyed. Wake up! Seek the truth!

 

[jim28]

Please focus on the last paragraph of my previous post. (something about your own fallible teachings . . . hmmmm)

Your “previous post” is nothing but opinions arising from your own fallible teachings. Not a hint of Dogma.uch:

You are fighting fire with paper.
You are fighting Truth with opinions.

 

[LRThunder]

That’s wierd, because because John XXIII and others say that Catholics share the same faith with the Orthodox and the Orthodox do not accept the popes either. Is he a heretic or schismatic, of course.

You are not unlike most others on this forum who like to spout their opinions and tell Sedes how “asinine” their positions are but please offer some proof that our positions are asinine.

thanks:extrahappy:

The problem is that the Orthodox don’t pick and choose what popes they accept or don’t “accept.” They’ve rejected papal authority as taught by the Catholic Church.

 

[louey]

The problem is that the Orthodox don’t pick and choose what popes they accept or don’t “accept.” They’ve rejected papal authority as taught by the Catholic Church.

So what’s your point? The Orthodox are Schismatic’s, and have no share in the Kingdom of God.

 

[LRThunder]

So what’s your point? The Orthodox are Schismatic’s, and have no share in the Kingdom of God.

My point is that one shouldn’t point to the Orthodox to “justify” their views of all the popes since Pius XII (or John XXIII, depending on which group you ask. )

 

[revelations]

Brothers and sisters, this is all very disconcerting. The sedevacantists of today are much like the sanhedrin of the new testament. The promises of Jesus ring true today just as they did in the past. His bride, the church, will not fall to the gates of Satan.

My separated brethren, open your eyes. Satan has turned you against the mother church and her servants JP II and Benedict XVI. Jim28, could you list for us the non-liturgical changes in dogma the current ‘heretical’ church is teaching? The truth has not changed in the least. The church teaches the SAME things it did pre vatican 2.

In prayer,

-revelations

 

[louey]

My point is that one shouldn’t point to the Orthodox to “justify” their views of all the popes since Pius XII (or John XXIII, depending on which group you ask. )

The problem is that the Orthodox don’t pick and choose what popes they accept or don’t “accept.” They’ve rejected papal authority as taught by the Catholic Church.

So the point is that the Orthodox do not share the same faith as the Roman Catholic. They separate themselves by rejecting the papacy; they are schismatic’s and most often also heretic’s. Yet JohnXXIII states they share the same faith as Roman Catholic’s. If that were so, they would no longer be Orthodox, they would be Roman Catholic’s.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

That’s wierd, because because John XXIII and others say that Catholics share the same faith with the Orthodox and the Orthodox do not accept the popes either. Is he a heretic or schismatic, of course.

You are not unlike most others on this forum who like to spout their opinions and tell Sedes how “asinine” their positions are but please offer some proof that our positions are asinine.

thanks:extrahappy:

Actually the the Orthodox do recognize the Pope as the Bishop of Rome. and I think that he has a few Other Titles that they hold to I don no know what they are but read them on a post from a Orthodox not long along ago. The Schism between east and west is over the Authority of Rome and part of the Nicaean Creed, teaching on purgatory. Try to pull a comparison with the Orthodox is really reaching here. You would be better served using protestants. Also It is the Sedes that are making the claims that the Chair is vacant and that the church has fallen into heresy so it is upon them to produce the proof and back up the claim. other wise they are but another protestant denomination.

 

[louey]

Actually the the Orthodox do recognize the Pope as the Bishop of Rome. and I think that he has a few Other Titles that they hold to I don no know what they are but read them on a post from a Orthodox not long along ago. The Schism between east and west is over the Authority of Rome and part of the Nicaean Creed, teaching on purgatory. Try to pull a comparison with the Orthodox is really reaching here. You would be better served using protestants. Also It is the Sedes that are making the claims that the Chair is vacant and that the church has fallen into heresy so it is upon them to produce the proof and back up the claim. other wise they are but another protestant denomination.

The Church cannot “fall into heresy” the Church is protected by the Holy Ghost from falling into heresy by the fact it posseses the charism of infallibilty, given to the Pope; it is the safe guard for the faithful to protect them into falling into heresy or being deceived. Men fall into heresy, men become heretic’s; not the Catholic Church. The documents of Vatican II along with all the other new books of the vii church, i.e. the new code of canon law, the new catechism, and the sacriligous novus ordus mass are all non catholic. The “proof” of heresy is manifest in all the doc’s of vii council, as well as the catechism, and canon laws. If you do not recognize the heresies, it is because you do not love the truth. You believe lies, rather than truth. “We are of God. He that knoweth God, heareth us. He that is not of God, heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.” 1John 4:6

 

[jim28]

Brothers and sisters, this is all very disconcerting. The sedevacantists of today are much like the sanhedrin of the new testament. The promises of Jesus ring true today just as they did in the past. His bride, the church, will not fall to the gates of Satan.

The gates of hell have not prevailed upon the Church and believing that the Chair is vacant does not mean that they have.

My separated brethren, open your eyes. Satan has turned you against the mother church and her servants JP II and Benedict XVI.

Please do not call me your separated brethren. Your separated brethren are other protestants and muslims, jews, hindus, etc…

Jim28, could you list for us the non-liturgical changes in dogma the current ‘heretical’ church is teaching?

For one John Paul II kissing a koran is a public act of apostasy. It is scandalous and publically denouncing of the Christian faith. This is one example among many.
Another very basic example:
Lumen Gentium #16: “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

1. The plan of Salvation does not include those outside the Church. This dogma can not be reduced to a meaningless formula.
2. They do not hold the Faith of Abraham
   3)The Lord can only be worshipped and adored in the Catholic Church
   4)The one, merciful God is The Holy Trinity, which they surely do not worship.
3. Jesus Christ is mankind’s judge on the last day, not allah.

The truth has not changed in the least. The church teaches the SAME things it did pre vatican 2.

You are right, the Truth did not change in the least. And the Church does teach and will always teach the same dogmas, but the VII church is not the Catholic Church and does not teach the same thing as the Catholic Church.

Thanks

 

[louey]

The gates of hell have not prevailed upon the Church and believing that the Chair is vacant does not mean that they have.

Please do not call me your separated brethren. Your separated brethren are other protestants and muslims, jews, hindus, etc…

For one John Paul II kissing a koran is a public act of apostasy. It is scandalous and publically denouncing of the Christian faith. This is one example among many.
Another very basic example:
Lumen Gentium #16: “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

1. The plan of Salvation does not include those outside the Church. This dogma can not be reduced to a meaningless formula.
2. They do not hold the Faith of Abraham
   3)The Lord can only be worshipped and adored in the Catholic Church
   4)The one, merciful God is The Holy Trinity, which they surely do not worship.
3. Jesus Christ is mankind’s judge on the last day, not allah.

You are right, the Truth did not change in the least. And the Church does teach and will always teach the same dogmas, but the VII church is not the Catholic Church and does not teach the same thing as the Catholic Church.

Thanks

Do my eyes deceive me? Are you really a Catholic Jim? I think you may be a Catholic! Greetings, brother.

 

[jim28]

Do my eyes deceive me? Are you really a Catholic Jim? I think you may be a Catholic! Greetings, brother.

I am a Catholic Louey. And I think you just might be one too.
Good to know.

:knight2:

p.s. do you pray all 15 decades?

 

[louey]

I am a Catholic Louey. And I think you just might be one too.
Good to know.

:knight2:

p.s. do you pray all 15 decades?

Sadly, and with shame I admit I do not. I do have a question for you. Do you adhere to all the teachings of Dimond brother’s? Of course I am assuming you are familiar with the Dimonds. Correct me if I am wrong.