Most Protestant Say John 6 Is Symbolic

[jim1130]

I only trust God to reveal himself to us. And why do you say such things about me when we have never met?

Your posts have indicated such.

 

[jim1130]

The same way you know that Catholicsm is true.

God takes us where we are and leads us to where he wants us to be. I think that you could be directed to be Catholic and I could be directed to be Mormon because we are different people with different backgrounds and needs.

Go back to post # 124. I shared with you a lot of information, information that you ignored, information on how the scriptural eating flesh and drinking blood for the Jewish people was not akin to spirituality, information to show you that Jesus was not speaking symbolically or metaphorically but literally…

And you ignored it all.

All under the pretense that my conscience led me, which you explained away as following God’s path. You dismissed us for listening to “experts,” as you said, yet you follow the leaders of the Mormon Church.

God did not lead you to be Mormon. You lead yourself and now you are trying to rationalize and justify that at the expense of dismissing Catholicism. You turn around and holdus to a standard (not allowed to use Early Church Fathers) that you do not yourself follw (use the Book of Mormon).

 

[jim1130]

Okay, this could go on for years.

Simple questions to ask of Mormonism:

(1) God the Father is a glorified man, possessing a physical body. That is, the Almighty Lord was once born of human parents in some other universe. He lived a Mormon way of life, repented of His sins, died, and was eventually raised by His God and installed as God of this world. True or False?

Along those lines: Was there ever a time God did not exist? Was God always God? Did God ever commit sin?

(2) Mormons believe in a pluraty of gods. True or False?

(3) Mormons believe a man can become God (a man who lives as a faithful Mormon in this life, fulfilling all obligations imposed on him by the LDS Church, may progress to Godhood in the next life, will be given his own world to populate and rule, together with his heavenly wife/earthly Mormon spouse). True or False?

(4) Jesus is half man and half God. True or False?

(5) Mormons do not believe in the Trinity (i.e. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as one). True or False?

(6) Mormons believe in the Godhead, that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate and distinct individuals. True or False?

 

[ryanoneil]

If you don’t mind me throwing in my 2 cents . . .

We agree on this part, but what I am saying is that he told those who stayed that those who left were taking his words “carnally” (literally here) instead of how he meant the words- spiritually-- which is why he said his words were “spirit”

Ok so now I think we understand precisely how we disagree here.

It just shows how a little amibuity in one verse can lead to vast doctrinal differences.

What words are spirit and life? The words that we must eat Jesus’ flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life in us.

In 6:55 Jesus is emphasizing the miracle of His body and blood being actual food and drink. Then the unbelievers ask, “Who can ‘listen’ to it much less understand it?”, because to the unillumined mind, it seems grotesque.

In 6:61-63 Jesus acknowledges their disgust. So, his use of the phrase “the spirit gives life” means the disciples need supernatural faith, not logic, to understand His words.

Jesus used the comparison of “spirit versus flesh” to teach about the necessity of possessing supernatural faith versus a natural understanding in other places as well.

**What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’ (John 3:6-7)

Watch and pray that you may not undergo the test. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." (Mark 14:38)**

Paul also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison to teach that unspiritual people are not receiving the gift of faith. They are still “in the flesh.”

**Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually. (1 Cor 2:14)

Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people, as infants in Christ. I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were unable to take it. Indeed, you are still not able, even now, for you are still of the flesh. While there is jealousy and rivalry among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving in an ordinary human way? (1 Cor 3:1-3)

For those who live according to the flesh are concerned with the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit with the things of the spirit. (Rom 8:5)

For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you may not do what you want. (Gal 5:17)**

So, we must go beyond the natural to understand the supernatural. Many of Jesus’ disciples left rejecting his literal words that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. They understood Him correctly but would not believe.

 

[ryanoneil]

**"‘And was carried in His Own Hands: ‘how carried in His Own Hands’? Because when He commended His Own Body and Blood, He took into His Hands that which the faithful know; and in a manner carried Himself, when He said, ‘This is My Body.’"
Augustine, On the Psalms, 33:1,10 **

 

[JMJ_coder]

So you trust the church above your own conscience?

It is amazing how we were having a civil discussion before I mentioned being Mormon. Why is that? Why has everything now changed?

The Church is not some wacko cult, like some other groups out there. We aren’t brainwashed.

But, our consciences must be well-formed according to the divine light of revelation, which the Church is the guardian of.

It is amazing how we were having a civil discussion before I mentioned being Mormon. Why is that? Why has everything now changed?

And how is saying I completely disagree with you not civil?

 

[jim1130]

The Church is not some wacko cult, like some other groups out there. We aren’t brainwashed.

But, our consciences must be well-formed according to the divine light of revelation, which the Church is the guardian of.

And how is saying I completely disagree with you not civil?

mfbukowski is talking about me. Evidence has been provided, but he chose not to see it.

I am still awaiting answers to the short quiz in # 143.

 

[jim1130]

I did not enter the fray until Post # 70, but there is certainly a history of stubbornness, sarcasm, disrespect, and condensation that mfbukowski demonstrated toward others who were trying to explain St. John 6, the Real Presence, the “flesh and spirit” perspective.

Shall we review some of the posts for the benefit of others? This way mfbukowski can take down the oh-woe-is-me martyr mantel and realize that mfbukowski is no victim here, but truly the recipient of what was sown.

Post # 3 –

This is a horrible argument. “Eat my flesh” is used metaphorically and your point about the use of “eat” is irrelevant. That is like saying the story of the flood is literally true because the word “ark” is used nowhere symbolically. Jesus also said “I am the way” but he was not a road, he said “I am the gate” but he was not a gate.

John 6:63 says " It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

This proves he was speaking “spiritually” because he plainly says the “flesh profiteth nothing”. What then is the advantage of eating his “flesh” if it “profiteth nothing?” This is especially significant because he is talking about those who misunderstood and left because they thought that he literally wanted them to eat his flesh. What is important is the spirit he is imparting, not the fact that we eat his flesh. It seems very plain to me.

Post # 4 –

None of these scriptures prove your point. Bread is not flesh. If I were to tell you I was eating a steak while muching on bread and butter you would think I was delusional.

Obviously there must be some spiritual meaning to these scriptures. We don’t actually eat human flesh. That is called cannibalism and I know that Catholics are not cannibals. One can believe in a “spiritual real presence” because Jesus said that he is with us if he we are “gathered in his name”. I believe he IS with us and that we symbolically eat his flesh.

A bannana is not a pear. Bread is not steak. Candy is not wheat. Lead is not gold. Things are what they are, but we may speak metaphorically or spiritually about them. There is no such thing as “substance” under different “appearances”. Were it so, I could be 6’4 and weigh 200 pounds of solid muscle and appear to be 18 years old. Or perhaps I could be a lion. No I think a cheetah would be fun-- I would love to be able to run 60 miles an hour. Unfortunately, it is not so! Catholics typically pride themselves on being rational about their beliefs, but this is where all that rationality breaks down.

Post # 18

I’ll go with what Jesus said above the ECF’s anytime. And they were 150 years later or more. Can you imagine how much time 150 years is among illiterate people who are passing doctrine down to eachother verbally? 1859 was 150 years ago. The Civil war had not yet started. What if someone had taught doctrine in 1859 and it was passed verbally from person to person until YOU wrote about it today. What are the chances you would get the exact quote that was passed on 150 years ago?

Good luck.

Unless it is something written by St. Augustine that can be manipulated by mfbukowski to support a weak argument. See Post # 28.

Post # 28 –

I am the gate. Am am am

No difference linguistically. But see above. Augustine says it is a figure and to be taken spiritually, not carnally.

Ever heard of a=b? If a=b then b=a. The only difference is first person vs third person.

more…

 

[jim1130]

…continued…

Post # 31 –

I do not doubt that Catholic tradition supports your view. That is clearly evident.

I believe that the sacrament (eucharist to you) is the body and blood of Christ. Symbolically.

Is Jesus the light of the world? Of course he is. But he is not in my room when I turn the light on.

If I turn the light on, and pray, he could be. Not because the light is on, but because I am praying.

Is he the bread of life? When we partake of the sacrament we are in him physically in the sense that the church is his body and we are in the membership of the church. Is he in us? We take the bread into our bodies, and he abides spiritually in us. So he is within us and without us. But the bread is not his flesh, it is bread. But his presence symbolically in this act gives us life, so he is the bread of life.

Is he a sheperd? He takes care of me as if I am one of his lambs but this is a metaphor. Even while alive, I think he probably never nursed a real lamb. He was a carpenter as far as we know.

But I suppose we will never convince eachother, so I don’t know if there is much point in repeating the question. But if anyone wants to know why we believe that the real presence isn’t real in the same way you think it is, that is the answer. I think the case is a good one, but obviously our beliefs are still unchanged

Post # 39 –

Hmmm. What if I told you he appeared and told me it was symbolic. Would you believe me? Why should I believe you? Do you believe in visions? What about Joseph Smith’s vision?

He did that. He said that his words were spiritual and that the “flesh profiteth nothing”. Didn’t you see the Augustine quote above about this? That is what he says.

Augustine disagrees with you. I think I’ll go with him.

Depends on who you read.

See Post # 18 and # 28.

Post # 61 –

Don’t listen to anybody’s interpretation. What do you think? God gave you a brain for a reason.

Post # 66

Another good post. Thanks. Part of this was what I was trying to say but you explained it much better. Your interpretation is born out by the Catholic tradition that this is the point at which Judas turned to the “dark side”.

If it’s ok with you I may pm you from time to time when I have questions about ev theology. I am finding hard to get a straight answer on a few things, but I don’t want to derail the thread.

Post # 84 –

But this is precisely my point. Jesus was condemning those who thought mistakenly that we were to eat his flesh because doing so “profited nothing”. Those who thought it was necessary to eat his flesh left.

Catholics believe it is necessary to eat his flesh.

Transubstantiated flesh, but flesh nevertheless. I am saying this attitude is a misunderstanding of this very scripture. Perhaps my point is now clearer.

It seems that the doctrine of transubstantiation was manufactured to justify a way to eat his flesh without being cannibals. I think that is what Augustine was saying in the segment I quoted earlier.

I agree with John 6 that it is not necessary to eat his flesh, but to remember him and know that he is in us and we are in communion with him.

Post # 89 –

Fine. Trust whom you will for your interpretation. Find your guide. But you are still using your own inspiration to find your guide whoever it is, the Catholic church or Martin Luther or Rajneesh. God bless you. You want a guide, pick one. Mine is the Holy Spirit.

Post # 99 –

Awwww come on dude! I could say the same about you! You are the ones with all the traditions!

more…

 

[jim1130]

…continued…

Post # 100 –

What do you want from me? Do you me to say the words “his flesh profits us?” Ok so I said it your way. Does that help??

You still haven’t answered my question about what that means in John 6!

Post # 103 –

Hey come on, I am trying to be nice here. It isn’t easy for me!

Post # 112 –

He did in verse 63. Read Augustine.

Post # 119 –

Ah yes grasshopper but this is not the problem. The problem is how do you know what God wants you to do?

That is the problem. Do you trust the experts about that – those who are men just like you, or do you trust God to speak to you?

It is not that I make God in my image. The question is who I trust to tell me who God is.

Post # 120 –

Genesis 14:17 among other places. What was the priesthood Melchizadek had? It was not Levitical. Why did Abraham pay him tithes, and arguably have a “communion service”? And why is Christ said to be a Priest forever after the order of Melchizadek?

Who was this guy and what were they doing?

Your other cites apply only if you believe Catholic tradition, which I do not accept

See Posts # 18, 28, 84, & 112.

That’s it.

 

[mfbukowski]

It has been answered repeatedly and repeatedly there is plenty of supporting evidence in the Bible and in the Early Church Fathers. For whatever reason, you just choose not to see it.

No, tell me how bread is flesh. What is the chemistry, and why would God defy the laws of physics?

Not “can he” but why would he? At every mass ever said?

When God defies his own laws, he ceases to be God.

I know.

“It’s a mystery”. You can’t answer it.

You need to use your brain.

 

[jim1130]

No, tell me how bread is flesh. What is the chemistry, and why would God defy the laws of physics?

Not “can he” but why would he? At every mass ever said?

When God defies his own laws, he ceases to be God.

I know.

“It’s a mystery”. You can’t answer it.

You need to use your brain.

Let’s see, Christ said in Matt. 26:26-28; Mark. 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; “this IS my body and blood.”

In John 6, Jesus says he is the bread of life.

You do not understand so you walked away. To use a term you had assigned in one of your posts to describe those who walked away from Christ in John 6, you would be a goat.

St. Peter said that Christ had the words of everlasting life. he did not understand, but he believed and did not walk away.

After the resurrection, on the Emmaus, when did the Apostles realize it was Jesus with whom they walked? Whenhe broke the bread.

See any parallels here?

The accidents of bread and wine do not change, but the substance of the bread and wine are the glorified and risen Christ.

By stating, “use your brain,” you indicate that you subscribe to “the flesh” rather than follow the lead of St. Peter.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

No, tell me how bread is flesh. What is the chemistry

We are told that we become new creations in Christ. Should we take before and after DNA tests to confirm?

God bless

 

[mfbukowski]

At least I admitted it in my post that I was uncharitable.

And you were right.

One’s conscience? I thought you said you were following God’s plan? Which is it? Your conscience? Or God’s plan? you decided what was the truth and then said “this church fits MY beliefs.” Yes, spiritual anarchy. That is the basis of protestantism. I guess I should have said relativism.

If God is just, we must be able to know his plan for us directly. Otherwise we could be condemned to hell for no fault of our own. But this is probably above your ability to comprehend. Your conscience is what tells you what is right or wrong. Perhaps you don’t have one.

Jesus and Satan are not brothers?

We are all spirit children of the father. Even you. In that sense only they are brothers. You have been reading too many anti-mormons and do not understand our theology. Maybe I should start the Jack Chick stuff too.

There are not 3 levels to heaven? When you die, you do not become God of your own domain. If you say so, but Catholicism is out there for public consumption whereas Mormonism is fairly secretive, which probalby explains why my aunt was not allowed to her own daughter’s wedding.

There are probably an infinite number of levels. We all get what we deserve. There are at least 3 major divisions.

I am sorry about your aunt. Should I go and receive communion without being a member of your church? No? How is that fair?

You decided the truth? This is the prime example of liberal Protestantism: Find the Chruch that supports YOUR beliefs. What is that church’s authority? Prove their lineage to the time of the Apostles.

So why are you not Buddhist? Or Hindu? I guess we should all find churches we DON’T believe in — is that what you are saying? Your point is absurd.

Our church was restored and we can prove our lineage as well as you can, which is not at all. Neither of us can “prove” that lineage and both are accepted on faith. If you had one corrupt pope, or enough corrupt bishops your line is gone. I have done over 700 posts on this forum about the apostasy and am not doing it again. And the “gates of hell” stuff won’t help you. I have shown repeatedly that that prophecy is not even about authority.

God did not “stop for no reason.” Revelation ended with the Apostles because it was fulfilled through the Son. Now, you probably believe that after the death of the last Apostle that a great apostacy hit the Church that caused it to disappear until the early 1800s; however, if you read the Early Church Fathers and early councils that would completely obliterate that position.

Of course. Because they were apostate.

You mean that if you die and land in the first level of Heavan you are not assigned as a god to your own earth? Yuo mean that God did not select a plan of salvation from Jesus rather than Satan?

Of course not. The savior put forth the Father’s plan. Satan opposed it. Exaltation is similar (not identical by any means) to theosis. In your terms, the telestial kingdom is not unlike purgatory in may ways. And no one “is assigned as a god to your own earth”. Read John 17. We share in the glory of the Father, and can become like him. God is God of the universe and we can become like him. You make this a petty pagan caricature when it is the most incredible gift we can receive.

Why is your God incapable of giving his children such a gift? Is he selfish or not omnipotent?

You want to take the gloves off, I am willing to accomodate you.

Peace be to the others here, but I will not stand up to my religion being insulted.

 

[jim1130]

And you were right.

If God is just, we must be able to know his plan for us directly. Otherwise we could be condemned to hell for no fault of our own. But this is probably above your ability to comprehend. Your conscience is what tells you what is right or wrong. Perhaps you don’t have one.

We are all spirit children of the father. Even you. In that sense only they are brothers. You have been reading too many anti-mormons and do not understand our theology. Maybe I should start the Jack Chick stuff too.

There are probably an infinite number of levels. We all get what we deserve. There are at least 3 major divisions.

I am sorry about your aunt. Should I go and receive communion without being a member of your church? No? How is that fair?

So why are you not Buddhist? Or Hindu? I guess we should all find churches we DON’T believe in — is that what you are saying? Your point is absurd.

Our church was restored and we can prove our lineage as well as you can, which is not at all. Neither of us can “prove” that lineage and both are accepted on faith. If you had one corrupt pope, or enough corrupt bishops your line is gone. I have done over 700 posts on this forum about the apostasy and am not doing it again. And the “gates of hell” stuff won’t help you. I have shown repeatedly that that prophecy is not even about authority.

Of course. Because they were apostate.

Of course not. The savior put forth the Father’s plan. Satan opposed it. Exaltation is similar (not identical by any means) to theosis. In your terms, the telestial kingdom is not unlike purgatory in may ways. And no one “is assigned as a god to your own earth”. Read John 17. We share in the glory of the Father, and can become like him. God is God of the universe and we can become like him. You make this a petty pagan caricature when it is the most incredible gift we can receive.

Why is your God incapable of giving his children such a gift? Is he selfish or not omnipotent?

You want to take the gloves off, I am willing to accomodate you.

Peace be to the others here, but I will not stand up to my religion being insulted.

Tragically, you have been led very VERY far astray. Let us look at a few pages of YOUR religion.

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e419fb40e21cef00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD

OUR FATHER
IN HEAVEN
C h a p t e r 1

**Because we are made in his image (see Moses 6:9), we know that God has a body that looks like ours. His eternal spirit is housed in a tangible body of flesh and bones **(see D&C 130:22). God’s body, however, is perfected and glorified, with a glory beyond all description.

THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST
IN FORMER TIMES
C h a p t e r 1 6

The Church of Jesus Christ in the Americas

After Jesus was resurrected, he visited the people in America and organized his Church among them (see 3 Nephi 11-28). Then he left them and ascended into heaven. For over two hundred years they lived righteously and were among the happiest people whom God had created (see 4 Nephi 1:16).

Apostasy from the True Church

Throughout history, evil people have tried to destroy the work of God. This happened while the Apostles were still alive and supervising the young, growing Church. Some members taught ideas from their old pagan or Jewish beliefs instead of the simple truths taught by Jesus. In addition, there was persecution from outside the Church. Church members were tortured and killed for their beliefs. One by one, the Apostles were killed. Because of the persecution, surviving Apostles could not meet to choose and ordain men to replace those who were dead. Eventually, local priesthood leaders were the only ones who had authority to direct the scattered branches of the Church. The perfect organization of the Church no longer existed, and confusion resulted. More and more error crept into Church doctrine, and soon the destruction of the Church was complete. The period of time when the true Church no longer existed on earth is called the Great Apostasy.

Soon pagan beliefs dominated the thinking of those called Christians. The Roman emperor adopted this false Christianity as the state religion. This church was very different from the church Jesus organized. Members of this church believed that God was a being without form or substance.

The emperor chose his own leaders and called them by the same titles used by priesthood leaders in the true Church of Christ. Church officers were given honor and wealth. Bishops and archbishops fought among themselves to gain more power. There were no Apostles or other priesthood leaders with power from God, and there were no spiritual gifts. The prophet Isaiah had foreseen this condition, prophesying, “The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant” (Isaiah 24:5). It was the Church of Jesus Christ no longer; it was a church of men. Even the name had been changed. In the Americas, apostasy also occurred (see 4 Nephi).

THE GIFT OF
THE HOLY GHOST
C h a p t e r 2 1

In chapter 7 we learned that the Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead. He is a spirit in the form of a man. He does not have a body of flesh and bones. He can be in only one place at a time, but his influence can be everywhere at once.

more…

 

[jim1130]

continued…

EXALTATION
C h a p t e r 4 7

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).

They will become gods.

They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.

They will receive a fulness of joy.

They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have–all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).

I figure that since I went to your Church site for information, perhaps you would like to read information on the Eucharist: comparing-views.com/book/c15cath.htm

 

[jim1130]

For those of you who wish to compare Catholicsm and Mormonism, this site may be of help:

comparing-views.com/

 

[jim1130]

Maybe I should start the Jack Chick stuff too.

Just be sure to start a new thread.

I am sorry about your aunt. Should I go and receive communion without being a member of your church? No? How is that fair?

Comparing the proverbial apples and oranges.

Our church was restored and we can prove our lineage as well as you can, which is not at all. Neither of us can “prove” that lineage and both are accepted on faith. If you had one corrupt pope, or enough corrupt bishops your line is gone. I have done over 700 posts on this forum about the apostasy and am not doing it again. And the “gates of hell” stuff won’t help you. I have shown repeatedly that that prophecy is not even about authority.

We can prove our lineage, but it is easier for you to dismiss the Church Fathers since it conflicts with your reality.

Of course. Because they were apostate.

Feel free to begin a separate thread on this issue.

Of course not. The savior put forth the Father’s plan. Satan opposed it. Exaltation is similar (not identical by any means) to theosis. In your terms, the telestial kingdom is not unlike purgatory in may ways. And no one “is assigned as a god to your own earth”. Read John 17. We share in the glory of the Father, and can become like him. God is God of the universe and we can become like him. You make this a petty pagan caricature when it is the most incredible gift we can receive.

We do not become “gods.” There is only 1 God.

You want to take the gloves off, I am willing to accomodate you.

Feel free, but start separate threads on the topics of interest.

Peace be to the others here, but I will not stand up to my religion being insulted.

I actually feel sorry for you because you have been mislead.

For those of you out there who would like to read the official LDS teachings here is a link: **lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-1,00.html
**

 

[jim1130]

At least I admitted it in my post that I was uncharitable.

And you were right.

But I have also been very accurate in my presentation of LDS beliefs. THAT you cannot dispute.

From Post # 143, which you did not answer:

(1) God the Father is a glorified man, possessing a physical body. That is, the Almighty Lord was once born of human parents in some other universe. He lived a Mormon way of life, repented of His sins, died, and was eventually raised by His God and installed as God of this world. True or False?

Along those lines: Was there ever a time God did not exist? Was God always God? Did God ever commit sin?

(2) Mormons believe in a pluraty of gods. True or False?

(3) Mormons believe a man can become God (a man who lives as a faithful Mormon in this life, fulfilling all obligations imposed on him by the LDS Church, may progress to Godhood in the next life, will be given his own world to populate and rule, together with his heavenly wife/earthly Mormon spouse). True or False?

(4) Jesus is half man and half God. True or False?

(5) Mormons do not believe in the Trinity (i.e. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as one). True or False?

(6) Mormons believe in the Godhead, that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate and distinct individuals. True or False?

 

[mfbukowski]

But I have also been very accurate in my presentation of LDS beliefs. THAT you cannot dispute.

From Post # 143, which you did not answer:

At least the links you have provided are accurate.

It appears that you have answered post #143 for yourself with your links. Why are you asking me?

I guess I should just go the the catechsim and read what it says instead of asking you, and you can do the same. You have the right sources.