Most Protestant Say John 6 Is Symbolic

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mfbukowski said:
Then what are you using to debate them?

Why bother? Do you want to be rational about this or just say “it’s a mystery” and stop the non-existent debate?

If you want to use your mind, then bread is bread. If you want to use faith, then bread can be anything you want it to be. But then don’t try to debate it with people who do not believe as you do.

There is nothing here to debate. Bread is bread. You believe on faith that it is not. Fine. Your source is the bible which can be interpreted many ways, which you do not acknowledge.

There are many things we all take on faith. I believe the Book of Mormon is true scripture. I cannot prove this rationally. I can show evidences, but it cannot be proven rationally any more than the real presence can be proven rationally.

The mere fact that including most protestants, the majority of Christianity does not believe in the real presence. I suppose to you they are not bible believers. The reality is, they are rational people who have read the bible and gotten DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS THAN YOU HAVE.

Believe what you will. Good luck to you. But don’t say you can debate this “rationally” because you can’t. If you still think this is a rational issue, show me scientific evidence that a consecrated host is flesh and blood. You can’t. It is not a rational issue.

Millions agree with me, and for some reason, you pick me as a surrogate for your own problem with the eucharist – or what ever. I don’t know why I get picked as a surrogate for the millions who do not bleieve as you do. It is not a rational issue and is not debatable.

Now really, go away before I have to complain about harassment.
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Go to Eucharistic Miracles and see how consecrated hosts have turned into real human tissue. Specifically Heart tissue. In Venezuela There have been so many Marian apparitions to thusands of people, They even have a movie of the host bleeding by someone near the altar. There is a chalice containing the body and blood of our Lord in a church in Italy that for centuries has remained incorruptible. You need to see to believe. These miracles occurred for all the doubting thomases of the world. I hate to say it, but you are a card carrying member.
 
What else can they say without moving closer to the dogma of the Church founded by Christ? Any theology that is central to that Church will be rejected or modified by protestants generally. The other side to this is that even their belief in the real presence would not bring the Eucharist into their gatherings. It is the Catholic Church that brings that sacrament to believers as it does with Holy Orders…Reconcilliation… etc. Protestants don’t have them so the natural thing to do is minimize or reject these issues.🤷
 
pismopal said:
What else can they say without moving closer to the dogma of the Church founded by Christ? Any theology that is central to that Church will be rejected or modified by protestants generally. The other side to this is that even their belief in the real presence would not bring the Eucharist into their gatherings. It is the Catholic Church that brings that sacrament to believers as it does with Holy Orders…Reconcilliation… etc. Protestants don’t have them so the natural thing to do is minimize or reject these issues.🤷/QUOTE

You just said it in such a compelling and articulate way!

" Then He said toThomas, ’ Put your finger here, and see my hands, ’ And put out your hand, and place it in my side, do not be faithless, but believing. Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe” Jn. 20: 27-29
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alanjeddy said:
You are like the spoiled little boy who can’t get his way so he complains to anyone who will listen. It is you who should go away and preach your heretical uuorthodoxy somewhere else. You can’t handle the truth.
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boy, you don’t believe in pulling any punches, do you?

I like it… 🙂

some people just dont know how to have faith about certain things. They think God is powerful enough to make the world and human beings, but that he can’t consecrate a piece of bread and make it HIm.

Go figure… 🤷
 
distracted said:
boy, you don’t believe in pulling any punches, do you?

I like it… 🙂

some people just dont know how to have faith about certain things. They think God is powerful enough to make the world and human beings, but that he can’t consecrate a piece of bread and make it HIm.

Go figure… 🤷
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You are very insightful! The mormon fellow doesn’t pull any punches either. But in the end youu are right we should temper all our apologetics with a measure of Christian charity. Sometimes in the heat of “battle” I get carried away in defending Christ’s Church.
 
alanjeddy said:
Go to Eucharistic Miracles and see how consecrated hosts have turned into real human tissue. Specifically Heart tissue. In Venezuela There have been so many Marian apparitions to thusands of people, They even have a movie of the host bleeding by someone near the altar. There is a chalice containing the body and blood of our Lord in a church in Italy that for centuries has remained incorruptible. You need to see to believe. These miracles occurred for all the doubting thomases of the world. I hate to say it, but you are a card carrying member.
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It is a wicked and adulterous generation that seeks after a sign. If I told you about miracles Joseph Smith performed what would you say? Anything can be faked.

If I am such a card carrying member, why do I believe in my church? As usual you don’t know what you are talking about. Now really go away.
 
alanjeddy said:
" Then He said toThomas, ’ Put your finger here, and see my hands, ’ And put out your hand, and place it in my side, do not be faithless, but believing. Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe” Jn. 20: 27-29
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Yep- Not seen and yet believe— so why do you want me to believe your miracles? You should not believe them yourselves.Did you know that satan can perform “miracles”? You have an eternal regress here.

How do you know the miracles are true?

The same way you know the church is true – miracles don’t help.

Get it? Go away
 
mfbukowski said:
Yep- Not seen and yet believe— so why do you want me to believe your miracles? You should not believe them yourselves.Did you know that satan can perform “miracles”? You have an eternal regress here.

How do you know the miracles are true?

The same way you know the church is true – miracles don’t help.

Get it? Go away
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alanjeddy:
You are such a powerful theologian, so articulate, charming and so charismatic.
 
mfbukowski said:
I did years ago. Do you really think you are the first to come up with this idea?
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It is not an idea, it is a reality. The truth isn’t a something it is a somebody and His name is Jesus. You can’t handle the truth.
 
mfbukowski said:
It is a wicked and adulterous generation that seeks after a sign. If I told you about miracles Joseph Smith performed what would you say? Anything can be faked.

If I am such a card carrying member, why do I believe in my church? As usual you don’t know what you are talking about. Now really go away.
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You are the personification of christian charity. You really reflect brotherly love. Now I will go away if you promise to leave too.

You know you’d miis me. The reality is that apologetics can be like spiritual warfare. If ever you were in need of food or clothing or shelter i would give you the shirt off my back. I don’t want to fight anymore. I did tell you that I was sorry for offending you in a private message to you. You never offered any apology for all the times you told me to get lost or for saying that satan was the author of every Eucharistic miracle.
 
alanjeddy said:
You are the personification of christian charity. You really reflect brotherly love. Now I will go away if you promise to leave too.

You know you’d miis me. The reality is that apologetics can be like spiritual warfare. If ever you were in need of food or clothing or shelter i would give you the shirt off my back. I don’t want to fight anymore. I did tell you that I was sorry for offending you in a private message to you. You never offered any apology for all the times you told me to get lost or for saying that satan was the author of every Eucharistic miracle.
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I never said that. Look at the post. I very nearly believe in the “real presence”. All I said is that miracles don’t convert anyone, because they COULD BE satanic. That is the subjunctive case. It is conditional. I am not saying they are satanic.

Your apologies ring untrue because you are back at it again on the very next post.
 
mfbukowski said:
I never said that. Look at the post. I very nearly believe in the “real presence”. All I said is that miracles don’t convert anyone, because they COULD BE satanic. That is the subjunctive case. It is conditional. I am not saying they are satanic.

Your apologies ring untrue because you are back at it again on the very next post.
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,

Thank you for your clarification. Again I really mean it when I say I am sorry for being uncharitable at times. I would rather explore what our faiths both have in common. Hope you have a good evening. Take care.
 
alanjeddy said:
You are very insightful! The mormon fellow doesn’t pull any punches either. But in the end youu are right we should temper all our apologetics with a measure of Christian charity. Sometimes in the heat of “battle” I get carried away in defending Christ’s Church.
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Me too!!

I guess the main thing is to stay in the battle… even if we aren’t using the best weapons at our disposal…

I think sometimes we Catholics get too defensive - and therefore throw charity out the window at times - because we get so tired of all the anti-Catholic stuff and start thinking that non-Catholics are just not listening, tht they are deliberately defying just to be defying… Well, maybe some of them ARE… but i think a lot of them are just … not informed about waht all it means to be Catholic…

Do you get the feeling sometimes that to understand Catholicism, you have to actually BE Catholic??? :hypno: :hmmm:
 
distracted said:
Me too!!

I guess the main thing is to stay in the battle… even if we aren’t using the best weapons at our disposal…

I think sometimes we Catholics get too defensive - and therefore throw charity out the window at times - because we get so tired of all the anti-Catholic stuff and start thinking that non-Catholics are just not listening, tht they are deliberately defying just to be defying… Well, maybe some of them ARE… but i think a lot of them are just … not informed about waht all it means to be Catholic…

Do you get the feeling sometimes that to understand Catholicism, you have to actually BE Catholic??? :hypno: :hmmm:
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Well I think there is a lot of truth in this.

The catechism is full of jargon that has special meanings to Catholics and it is very difficult to get past that. But I think all churches have that problem-- each church becomes its own culture and language and we end up arguing about non-substantive issues.

If you think there are a lot of anti catholics, try being Mormon! EVERYBODY is against us!

Anyway, apologies to anyone who have felt that I was attacking their faith- that was never my intention and I will try to do better.

My problem is that when someone tells me how crazy my religion is, I have this compulsion to show them how crazy THEIR religion is. Not the best choice.
 
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