Most recent council governs?

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I have a question about the ecumenical councils.

Is it true that the most recent council (at this point, Vatican II), overrules anything conflicting with it in previous councils? I know that is how it works in statutory interpretation in the legal sphere.

Isn’t that how we should resolve any difficulty we might have with apparent (and I do mean apparent) contradictions?
 
In matters of law, yes.

In matters of faith and morals, the councils have to be looked at on a continuum.
 
Well, I don’t want to get into anything specific, since I don’t want to cause any controversy or scandal. So I am asking a general question. You can consider it a hypothetical.
 
In matters of law, yes.

In matters of faith and morals, the councils have to be looked at on a continuum.
What does a continuum mean in this context, Brother? Can you explain that?

Does it mean a process of gradual change?
 
What does a continuum mean in this context, Brother? Can you explain that?

Does it mean a process of gradual change?
No, it means that things can’t change. Something can become more precise, but never outright contradict. So when we look at Trent, for example, a lot of teaching was made more precise, especially about the Eucharist, in response to the Protestant heresies.
 
Well, I don’t want to get into anything specific, since I don’t want to cause any controversy or scandal. So I am asking a general question. You can consider it a hypothetical.
On the abstract level, the recent council “governs,” but here we need be careful because the Pope can (over)trump that governance.

Maybe a better question is, does the most recent council have the ultimate authority?

But that’s my opinion. Sorry for my earlier misspelling of “occurring.” :o
 
I have a question about the ecumenical councils.

Is it true that the most recent council (at this point, Vatican II), overrules anything conflicting with it in previous councils? I know that is how it works in statutory interpretation in the legal sphere.

Isn’t that how we should resolve any difficulty we might have with apparent (and I do mean apparent) contradictions?
This is an excellent question and one I do not have an answer to. It deals with Systematic Theology which is an area I’m not familiar with.

I would like to note that Vatican II is a pastoral council as opposed to an ecumenical council. Which I believe means it does not hold doctrinal authority.
 
I would like to note that Vatican II is a pastoral council as opposed to an ecumenical council. Which I believe means it does not hold doctrinal authority.
This is counter to Catholic understanding and official Church teaching. The Second Vatican Council is as much of an ecumenical council as Nicea or Trent. ALL the councils are pastoral. ALL of them. Further, Vatican 2 produced the DOGMATIC Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium) and the DOGMATIC Constitution on the Word of God (Dei Verbum). The documents (never to be confused with the “spirit”) of Vatican 2 holds doctrinal authority of the highest order.

That all being said, it is not a “super-dogma” and does not overrule earlier councils. As other posters have mentioned the magisterium of the Catholic Church cannot contradict itself it can only more precisely explain the original deposit of Faith left by Christ to the Apostles in the first century. Nothing can ever be added or subtracted from it. Trying to view the Church through the lens of law is going to lead you astray. The law can, and does change, even outright contradicting itself (think of legalized slavery, which after the 14th amendment was illegal). The moral law can never change, thus the Church cannot contradict earlier moral teachings.

What can change are the disciplines of the Church, e.g. no meat on Fridays, women veiling themselves in Mass, the almost exclusive use of Latin in the Liturgy (btw, we should bring all these back asap). These things can change and in such situations the current law does indeed trump previous law.

If you are really interested in this topic, I’d recommend Card. Newman’s “Development of Doctrine.”

God bless.
 
In matters of law and policy, the last council rules unless the pope says something different.

In matters of faith and morals, the councils speak on a continuum. Let’s look at a very good example, Nicea and Chalcedon Both councils address the question of the nature of Christ; but they’re not addressing the same question. In this regard, it’s doctrinal development while at the same time, the answers given do not deviate from the unchanging faith of the Church. What happens from one council to the next is that different questions can be addressed, but the answers are always grounded in the eternal faith of the Church. There is continuity of discussion, but also continuity of truth.

For example in the case of Vatican II, the big question in the mind of many Traditionalists is the question on the liturgy. The questions that the council raised about the liturgy were answered. The answers are consistent with the eternal faith of the Church. The Council said nothing new about the Eucharist and the liturgy. It simply tweeked the wording here or there. It did answer questions as to how the liturgy could be reformed without taking anything away from what the Church believes.

Another example that I can offer is the Council’s statements on the relationship between the Church and the world. In answering the question, the Council does not change a single letter of what the faith teaches about the Church, her nature and her mission. Those things are revealed and cannot be touched. Simply explained using language that modern man understands. As to how the Church should related to the world, that’s not a matter of revealed dogma, that’s a matter of process. What processes does the Church use to related to the world, especially a world that is no longer Catholic? A council can change the how, but not the what.

At the end of the day, the pope can change anything that any council changes, put it on hold for the future, add to it, or simply focus on a part of it. This is very common. Councils often address many topics. Pope only have one life to live and they usually become pope in later life. They have to pick what they are going to work on. It would be silly for a 76 year old man to think that he can implement all of Vatican II and answer every question that there is concerning what Vatican II said. At this age, one knows that one is closer to the end of one’s life, no matter how healthy. One carefully chooses what one feels one can do well for the good of the Church and leaves the rest to those who follow.

Neither of my parents lived to see 76. Most 76 year old people are enjoying their grandchildren and retirement, not running an institution with 1.2 billion people scattered on every continent. No pope that age would take on Vatican II as a whole. He’ll pick what he knows he can do in the little time allotted to him.

You may be asking, “Brother what if the current pope lives to 96, that’s not a short papacy?” No it’s not. But 20 years out of a life of 96 is still less than 1/4 of the person’s life and his energies are not the same as they were at age 45.

Sometimes what councils do has to wait for years before the popes that follow unwrap it all.
 
It seems an easy conclusion to draw in our day and age.

I remember reading one writer’s reaction to the functioning of the Church since the New Council went into effect: “It is as if no other Council ever existed”.

But as stated above, all Councils are equal regarding the level of authority of any doctrine stated and as Cardinal Newman has stated - ’ the future Council clarified (could never change or contradict in doctrine) what the previous Council(s) stated’…
 
This is counter to Catholic understanding and official Church teaching. The Second Vatican Council is as much of an ecumenical council as Nicea or Trent. ALL the councils are pastoral. ALL of them. Further, Vatican 2 produced the DOGMATIC Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium) and the DOGMATIC Constitution on the Word of God (Dei Verbum). The documents (never to be confused with the “spirit”) of Vatican 2 holds doctrinal authority of the highest order.

That all being said, it is not a “super-dogma” and does not overrule earlier councils. As other posters have mentioned the magisterium of the Catholic Church cannot contradict itself it can only more precisely explain the original deposit of Faith left by Christ to the Apostles in the first century. Nothing can ever be added or subtracted from it. Trying to view the Church through the lens of law is going to lead you astray. The law can, and does change, even outright contradicting itself (think of legalized slavery, which after the 14th amendment was illegal). The moral law can never change, thus the Church cannot contradict earlier moral teachings.
Hi Pietro Paolo,

Thanks for the correction / advice. I think I will pick up that book and learn more on the subject.

I was basing my original opinion on this quote from Pope Paul VI (who completed the council):
In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided any extraordinary statements of dogmas endowed with the note of infallibility, but it still provided its teaching with the authority of the Ordinary Magisterium which must be accepted with docility according to the mind of the Council concerning the nature and aims of each document.
Pope Paul VI
General Audience, 12 January 1966
So because no extraordinary statements were made, doesn’t that mean that the only thing dogmatic about the dogmatic constitution is the title?

Again, I’m just trying to understand.
 
In regards to ecclesiastical law, the latter decisions govern. With the substance of the faith, the living Magisterium governs (ie those alive right now who exercise the Church’s teaching authority). That doesn’t mean past dogmatic judgments are overruled or contradicted, but rather that it belongs to the living Magisterium to interpret them and to ensure the right meaning and understanding is always maintained.

Two people can look at some older document and disagree as to what it meant when it was issued–many historical schisms and heresies are based on this. This can come from words being given different meanings in different times (e.g. Homoousios was given a Sabellian meaning at one time, and an orthodox meaning later) or formulations being developed to address particular circumstances or errors or any number of reasons. In addressing this point in his 19th century book, On the Temporal Mission of the Holy Spirit, Cardinal Manning noted how these factos can lead to one finding apparent contradictions in past teachings. He concluded that in those cases, we should go with the living Chuch’s judgment:
Cardinal Manning:
“No critic except the living and lineal judge and discerner of truth, the only Church of God, can solve these inequalities and anomalies in the history of doctrine. To the Church the facts of antiquity are transparent in the light of its perpetual consciousness of the original revelation.”
In the same book, he expressed this maxim:
Cardinal Manning:
“The enunciation of the faith by the living Church of this hour, is the maximum of evidence, both natural and supernatural, as to the fact and the contents of the original revelation.”
This is why we have a perpetually living Magisterium and not just a Bible and a copy of Denzinger. This living teaching authority is perpetually needed to teach and explain the faith with the same true meaning amidst many different and changing circumstances. It ensures that the meaning of dogma does not change along with changes in the meaning of words and that the application of truths of the faith to different circumstances (which can yield different results), does not lead to changes in the immutable substance of the faith (by either dogmatizing the contingent result, or relativizing the applied principle). It ensures that past texts are not given new meanings when read by different people in different times, who may have preconceived notions or cultural “baggage” which may color their understanding in ways that deviate from the true meaning of those texts.
 
Clare Mulligan:
I have a question about the ecumenical councils.

Is it true that the most recent council (at this point, Vatican II), overrules anything conflicting with it in previous councils? I know that is how it works in statutory interpretation in the legal sphere.

Isn’t that how we should resolve any difficulty we might have with apparent (and I do mean apparent) contradictions?
Vatican I:

If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and understands: let him be anathema.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android
 
In regards to ecclesiastical law, the latter decisions govern. With the substance of the faith, the living Magisterium governs (ie those alive right now who exercise the Church’s teaching authority). That doesn’t mean past dogmatic judgments are overruled or contradicted, but rather that it belongs to the living Magisterium to interpret them and to ensure the right meaning and understanding is always maintained.

Two people can look at some older document and disagree as to what it meant when it was issued–many historical schisms and heresies are based on this. This can come from words being given different meanings in different times (e.g. Homoousios was given a Sabellian meaning at one time, and an orthodox meaning later) or formulations being developed to address particular circumstances or errors or any number of reasons. In addressing this point in his 19th century book, On the Temporal Mission of the Holy Spirit, Cardinal Manning noted how these factos can lead to one finding apparent contradictions in past teachings. He concluded that in those cases, we should go with the living Chuch’s judgment:

In the same book, he expressed this maxim:

This is why we have a perpetually living Magisterium and not just a Bible and a copy of Denzinger. This living teaching authority is perpetually needed to teach and explain the faith with the same true meaning amidst many different and changing circumstances. It ensures that the meaning of dogma does not change along with changes in the meaning of words and that the application of truths of the faith to different circumstances (which can yield different results), does not lead to changes in the immutable substance of the faith (by either dogmatizing the contingent result, or relativizing the applied principle). It ensures that past texts are not given new meanings when read by different people in different times, who may have preconceived notions or cultural “baggage” which may color their understanding in ways that deviate from the true meaning of those texts.
Great big 👍

thank you for that clear and concise post
 
This is an excellent question and one I do not have an answer to. It deals with Systematic Theology which is an area I’m not familiar with.

I would like to note that Vatican II is a pastoral council as opposed to an ecumenical council. Which I believe means it does not hold doctrinal authority.
False… Vatican II is to be considered an ecumenical council that was pastoral in nature.
 
This is an excellent question and one I do not have an answer to. It deals with Systematic Theology which is an area I’m not familiar with.

I would like to note that Vatican II is a pastoral council as opposed to an ecumenical council. Which I believe means it does not hold doctrinal authority.
Vatican II is definitely an Ecumenical Council and those parts of the documents that speak about dogma are binding and not up for discussion, such as when it says that the fullness of Christ’s Church subsists within the Catholic Church. This is a dogma that must be believed. It is nothing new, except the wording.

When it says that the fullness of revelation is contained in Sacred Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium, this is also a dogma that must be believed.

When it speaks about the nature of the Church and her mission, this is also dogma that must be believed.

Then there are points of discipline that the Council addresses such as the renewal of the liturgy, the renewal of religious life, the role of the bishops and collegiality. These are directions that the Council is giving, not just good ideas that it’s throwing out there. They are to be followed.

Many people live under the mistaken idea that only that which is declared infallible binds Catholics, nothing can be further from the truth. There is very little that the Church covers with the umbrella of infallibility and much less has been declared that is Ex Cathedra. Other than the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, the only other Ex Cathedra pronouncements that the Church has made are canonizations.

However, this does not mean that we can choose to comply or not comply. The Council of Trent and Vatican I made it very clear that Catholics have an obligation to comply with what Church authority asks of us. It was never said that we get to pick and choose when we comply, nor that we can refuse to comply because something is not infallible. That’s ridiculous.

The world does not operate that way. There is enough chaos in the world without having to add to it. Saying that people can choose to disobey legitimate authority only adds to the chaos. A simple example of this are Holy Days of Obligation. They are not dogmas and they are not revealed moral law. They are rules that the Church has created for our spiritual benefit and for the glory of God. Obviously, they are not the same for every country and at times not even the same within a diocese. But those to whom these rules are addressed will be held accountable for their non compliance.

I’ll give you a simple example. We recently celebrated the feasts of St. Ignatius, St. Dominic, and St. Clare. In my diocese these are ordinary feast days. However, we have Dominicans, Franciscans and Jesuits in our diocese. For those who fall under one of these umbrellas, these were holy days of obligation. While other Catholics were going to work, Jesuits were celebrating the Solemnity of St. Ignatius, Franciscans celebrated the solemnities of St. Clare and St. Dominic. Dominicans celebrated the solemnity of St. Dominic.

If we were to say that these are not dogmas, nor revealed moral laws, therefore I can stay in bed and not go to mass on this particular day, those whom the Church binds by the law would be objectively culpable of grave sin.

So no, it’s not as simple as saying, “It’s only a pastoral council.” Pastoral care is the most important work of the Church. It was a modest council in that it did not define anything new. It was an important council in that it addressed pastoral issues that previous councils had not addressed, because they were not on agenda for those councils.

The difference between councils is the agenda. The answers that a council gives to the questions on its agenda are binding. To distinguish between doctrine, discipline and pastoral in order to justify non compliance is sophistry at its finest.
 
Then there are points of discipline that the Council addresses such as the renewal of the liturgy, the renewal of religious life, the role of the bishops and collegiality. These are directions that the Council is giving, not just good ideas that it’s throwing out there. They are to be followed.
So one of the questions remaining is whether the commissions (and subcommissions thereof) appointed by the council have more authority than the council itself. This is where I get confused.
 
So one of the questions remaining is whether the commissions (and subcommissions thereof) appointed by the council have more authority than the council itself. This is where I get confused.
In Church governance there is the principle of delegation. For example, when we say “The Holy See” or “The Apostolic See” it refers to the pope. However, in reality, the pope rarely deals with any of these issues or hears about them. Most popes have their own work to do and can’t take care of 20 million issues that occur each day around the world. Therefore, the Holy See has congregations, commissions, institutes, departments, etc to deal with very specific issues. As long as each of these does what has been delegated to it by the Pontiff, until the Pontiff says differently, one assumes that whatever comes out of them is his will. They have been “deputized” to speak authoritatively for him. Observe quotation marks. I couldn’t think of a better word in English.

The Council followed the same structure. It appointed commissions to deal with subjects that could not be dealt with in the general sessions. These commissions speak with authority, because they speak in the name of the Council. The only one who can speak over the Council is the pope.

This is the big issue that some people have with Vatican II. Some people say, “There is room to criticize Vatican II.” However, the last word that we had from the pope himself came from Pope Benedict when he addressed the SSPX and said that Vatican II and its documents must be accepted as they are. If we understand “Vaticanese”. This translates into “There is no room for discussion here.” or “It is what it is.”

But we will always have stubborn people who will insist that until the pope sits on his chair and says something like, “I solemnly declare and define that the Vatican II documents are to be accepted as they are, without criticism and without further arguments,” they can still argue.

This is yes and no. Yes in the sense that there is no commandment that says “Though shall not argue.” No in the sense that the Church is not willing to hear what you have to say, because she has made up her mind and is not interested in your opinion or mine. Until another pope comes around and says, “Ok, what do you want to say to me about these documents?” all of this discussion about the documents never makes it off the printed page.

Our current pope, Francis, is equally disinterested in entertaining a conversation about Vatican II and its documents. Therefore, those who continue to write and speak against them are actually just entertaining audiences, but not really putting a dent in the way that the popes have set up. The Church has no problems with entertainment that is moral. If people want to entertain themselves and others griping, complaining, denouncing, and pointing fingers at Vatican II and its documents, they are free to do so. For the moment, do not expect to be heard or expect an answer from the Holly Father. Pope Francis is very much of the same bolt of cloth as Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI.

My recommendation to people is to focus on what is immediately before them and leave these arguments to theologians and bishops who have the pope’s ear, if and when the pope chooses to listen. At the end of the day, my salvation does not depend on whether Vatican II says “the Church of Jesus Christ subsists in the Catholic Church” or “the Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ” Whichever wording I choose is not going to get me one single step closer to heaven. However, every single word that I say which violates charity, respect, and humility, because I don’t like the wording, will place me one step further from my eternal salvation. As Scripture says. We are saved by faith, hope and love and the greatest of these is love.

All too often human beings get so wrapped up in language that they lose control of their passions and they sin as a result. It is rather interesting how we often point the finger at Muslims for this, but we Catholics do the same thing. We do not endorse physical terrorism, but I wonder if what we do to our psyche is not just as bad. Really, it makes no sense to damage our psyche with all of these angry thoughts that do nothing for us or for the Church. There is an intimate connection between how we feel think and choose to act.
 
All,

Thanks for your detailed responses to my obviously flawed post, I clearly have a LOT to learn on this subject.

I think I understand things better, and I ordered that book that one of the CAF users suggested to learn more on Systematic Theology.

Thanks again!
 
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