Most traditional Dominican province?

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awatkins69

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I’ve been contemplating a vocation for a very long time. I’m considering the Dominican Order. But what is the most traditional and orthodox Dominican province in your opinion? I’ve heard from some friends that the Dominicans in South America are very much proponents of Liberation Theology and liturgical abuse, so I am a little worried. Thank you very much.
 
I am fairly familiar with the Dominicans. From what I have seen, I would have to say that at least stateside, the Dominican Western province is very much traditional. Fr. Patalano, Fr. Raftery and several others celebrate the Dominican Rite quite frequently. And Fr. Patalano is OK with other traditional priests saying the 1962 Rite in his parish on ocassion. I think the Provencial Superior is Fr. Emmerich Vogt. Fr. Emmerich has given his priests permission to say the Dominican Rite whenever they want.
 
Hi corsair,

I know Frs. Vogt, Patalano, and Raftery fairly well. Their position regarding the Dominican Rite Mass was the defining factor in what determined me to believe what was at that time, a controversial matter, namely, that the Traditional Mass promulgated by the last Dominican Bishop of Rome, St. Pius V, was perpetually legitimate and licit in the Roman rite, at least until it was specifically suppressed (which it never has).

They actually argued that from the Bull Pro Quimum, that the Dominican Rite, being more than 200 years old at the time of the Bull, has been licitly celebrated, and never suppressed for all these centuries. The irony as I saw it, was that they accepted the authority of Quo Primum to preserve a liturgy 200 years old or more at the time of the Bull, but disregarded the authority of the Bull to preserve the very liturgy that it promulgated in the strongest language.

But I love those three priests. God bless them and keep them. Fr. Vogt at one time, when he was the prior at Holy Rosary had announced that we would have a Novus Ordo Mass in Latin, ad orientam, facing the altar for the High Mass every Sunday. But somebody leaked it to the bishop and of course such “liturgical abuse” was ruled against by Archbishop Vlazny. I do not blame these good Dominicans for obeying the bishop even if they believed as I do, that he had no authority to stop them. In any event, they do not believe the bishop can legitmately suppress the Dominican Rite, and I don’t think he has tried.

Fr. Emmerich Vogt is now the provincial of the Western Province in America. I think he is wonderful priest, and would try to move the order in directions that you and I would agree with. But his election was not unanimous I am sure. There are some very liberal influences in the Province too. Just for context, I was preparing to be received as a permanently professed third order Dominican when I decided to assist at Our Lady of Fatima (SSPX). No other information was necessary to determine that I would not be making my profession.

But they left their mark on me. And a good mark it is. How I love all things Dominican. The greatest saints belong to that order beginning with their holy founder, St. Dominic. St. Thomas is embraced by all of course. But we…I mean they…have Sts. Vincent Ferrer, Catherine of Siena, Rose of Lima, Martin de Porres, and Raymond of Penyafort. Oh goodness, my youngest boy is thinking of seminary. Pray for him corsair. I know you will. He is going on a discernment retreat before Easter. Oh my…to have a priest in the family.

But I should speak to awatkins a little. The Western Province seminary is not where I would have my boy go. I wish I weren’t concerned about it, but I am. However, if he were determined to be Dominican, I would encourage him with every blessing I could give, fearing that he would need to be a little coy to be able to make it through as a committed Traditionalist. But you might not be looking for the level of traitionalism that my boy and I would be. I would encourage you to contact Fr. Emmerich Vogt, provincial of the Western Province in North America, or Fr. Paul Raftery, who is currently serving as a chaplain at Thomas Aquinas College in Southern California. (I will leave it to you to google for e-mails or other ways of contact. He would disagree with the path I have taken, but maybe you would too. I would love to encourage young men committed to Tradition to a Dominican calling. You would need to be wanting to preach. They go by the intials O.P., Order of Preachers.

God bless,

Rory
 
awatkins69 said:
I’ve been contemplating a vocation for a very long time. I’m considering the Dominican Order. But what is the most traditional and orthodox Dominican province in your opinion? I’ve heard from some friends that the Dominicans in South America are very much proponents of Liberation Theology and liturgical abuse, so I am a little worried. Thank you very much.
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Black Friars of Oxford from what I have seen.

godzdogz.op.org/

flickr.com/photos/paullew/ (Look through Fr Lew’s picture sets)
 
RoryMcKenzie56 said:
But I should speak to awatkins a little. The Western Province seminary is not where I would have my boy go. I wish I weren’t concerned about it, but I am. However, if he were determined to be Dominican, I would encourage him with every blessing I could give, fearing that he would need to be a little coy to be able to make it through as a committed Traditionalist. But you might not be looking for the level of traitionalism that my boy and I would be. I would encourage you to contact Fr. Emmerich Vogt, provincial of the Western Province in North America, or Fr. Paul Raftery, who is currently serving as a chaplain at Thomas Aquinas College in Southern California. (I will leave it to you to google for e-mails or other ways of contact. He would disagree with the path I have taken, but maybe you would too. I would love to encourage young men committed to Tradition to a Dominican calling. You would need to be wanting to preach. They go by the intials O.P., Order of Preachers.

God bless,

Rory
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Thank you Rory. You know, if the Dominicans were what they were back before Vatican II then I would not hesitate in the slightest to join them. I really love the Order of Preachers. Every part of their tradition appeals to me. However, it’s not only that, but also along with every tradition from before Vatican II. Not that I’m bashing Vatican II or anything like that. I’ve also been considering the FSSP, and the Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem (although I’m not sure if they are accepting vocations). The FSSP appeal to me not as much as the Dominicans insofar as they are not a religious order and they are not primarily preachers, but more similar to diocesan priests. However, they appeal to me because of their devotion to the pre-Vatican II tradition. And the CRNJ I just don’t know too much about. I’m not sure that they are friars like the Dominicans. They are very small, and like I said I’m not even sure if they are accepting vocations. But man, if the Dominicans were just what they used to be, I’d be there in a heartbeat. But please, tell me what you mean when you say you would feel uncomfortable with your son going to their seminary? And thanks everybody for the answers.
 
Speaking of Dominicans, I was curious as to whether or not non-Thomistic theology/philosophy is really allowed within the order. I read that they generally do not like any new ideas.
 
For as long as I’ve been a Catholic, I’ve been in contact with the Order of Preachers, and even though I am not from the USA, I thought I’d share my opinions about them.

Most of the priests I have met are orthodox in their preaching and teaching, but there are some exceptions. For the sake of respect and charity, I will not go into detail about some of the dissenting views I have heard from some priests of the Order. However, in my experience, the Order of Preachers is great! Their priests are excellent theologians and they celebrate very reverent liturgies.

They are not a traditionalist order, but most Dominicans will be willing to celebrate the EF if there is a demand for it, as is the case in my own parish. Another interesting thing is that the Order did not destroy the traditional architecture of their churches during the crazy years after the Second Vatican Council. Most churches in my diocese were renovated after Vatican II; the stained glass was removed, high altars smashed, statues reduced, and the altar rails dispeared. The only Church, which preserved it’s ancient beauty was the St. Dominic’s. The Dominicans did not go crazy and wreck everything.

I have never met better priests than Dominicans. Sometimes I hear troubling comments made my certain priests, but on the whole, they are a great Order. A comforting thought is that most of the younger priests are orthodox with tradtitionalist leanings. They will be the ones to implement the Reform of the Reform spearheaded by Benedict XVI.

On the whole, the English Province is great and will only get better when the old bunch retire and the younger priests take charge. Orthodoxy and traditionalism is definitey alive and well in the Order of Preachers.
 
Dempsey1919 said:
For as long as I’ve been a Catholic, I’ve been in contact with the Order of Preachers, and even though I am not from the USA, I thought I’d share my opinions about them.

Most of the priests I have met are orthodox in their preaching and teaching, but there are some exceptions. For the sake of respect and charity, I will not go into detail about some of the dissenting views I have heard from some priests of the Order. However, in my experience, the Order of Preachers is great! Their priests are excellent theologians and they celebrate very reverent liturgies.

They are not a traditionalist order, but most Dominicans will be willing to celebrate the EF if there is a demand for it, as is the case in my own parish. Another interesting thing is that the Order did not destroy the traditional architecture of their churches during the crazy years after the Second Vatican Council. Most churches in my diocese were renovated after Vatican II; the stained glass was removed, high altars smashed, statues reduced, and the altar rails dispeared. The only Church, which preserved it’s ancient beauty was the St. Dominic’s. The Dominicans did not go crazy and wreck everything.

I have never met better priests than Dominicans. Sometimes I hear troubling comments made my certain priests, but on the whole, they are a great Order. A comforting thought is that most of the younger priests are orthodox with tradtitionalist leanings. They will be the ones to implement the Reform of the Reform spearheaded by Benedict XVI.

On the whole, the English Province is great and will only get better when the old bunch retire and the younger priests take charge. Orthodoxy and traditionalism is definitey alive and well in the Order of Preachers.
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Thank you. However, if one is a Dominican and comes up with a conservative yet “original” philosophy, how is one treated within the order(i.e. is it tolerated)?
 
Well, I assume that it is, since they are technically democratic.
 
Thank you. However, if one is a Dominican and comes up with a conservative yet “original” philosophy, how is one treated within the order(i.e. is it tolerated)?
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Can you please explain what you mean? What is a conservative yet original philosophy?

I can explain something about the Order, based on my experiences. I have never heard a Dominican express heresy or any kind of unorthodox views from the pulpit or in the confessional. The heretical views I have heard have always been expressed privately in conversations I have had with certain priests. Dominicans will never express dissenting views publicly; although I know many will privately hold these views.

If a Dominican holds dissenting views, he will not express these from the pulpit or cause scandal but I have found that they do not preach on doctrines they disagree with. Another thing that they may imply certain things in their sermons, but that is as far as it goes.

I suppose this is nothing unique to the Order of Preachers. Other Orders are probably the same. There are many priests throughout the world, and it is highly unlikely that all of them believe everything the Church teaches. While this is unfortunate, I have no problem with this, unless they begin to publicly express their heretical/dissenting views.
 
Dempsey1919 said:
Can you please explain what you mean? What is a conservative yet original philosophy?

I can explain something about the Order, based on my experiences. I have never heard a Dominican express heresy or any kind of unorthodox views from the pulpit or in the confessional. The heretical views I have heard have always been expressed privately in conversations I have had with certain priests. Dominicans will never express dissenting views publicly; although I know many will privately hold these views.

If a Dominican holds dissenting views, he will not express these from the pulpit or cause scandal but I have found that they do not preach on doctrines they disagree with. Another thing that they may imply certain things in their sermons, but that is as far as it goes.

I suppose this is nothing unique to the Order of Preachers. Other Orders are probably the same. There are many priests throughout the world, and it is highly unlikely that all of them believe everything the Church teaches. While this is unfortunate, I have no problem with this, unless they begin to publicly express their heretical/dissenting views.
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Thank you, sir. I meant ideas that are in line with Church dogma/doctrine but are not based upon those by Aquinas or Albert Magnus. Is that permissible for Dominicans?
 
Thank you, sir. I meant ideas that are in line with Church dogma/doctrine but are not based upon those by Aquinas or Albert Magnus. Is that permissible for Dominicans?
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I am sure there are many Dominicans throughout the world who are not Thomists in their approach to theology.
 
Dempsey1919 said:
I am sure there are many Dominicans throughout the world who are not Thomists in their approach to theology.
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That’s unfortunate.

“His [St. Thomas’] teaching above that of others, the canonical writings alone excepted, enjoys such a precision of language, an order of matters, a truth of conclusions, that those who hold to it are never found swerving from the path of truth, and he who dare assail it will always be suspected of error.” --Innocent VI, quoted by Leo XIII in Aeterni Patris
 
dr_silverrose said:
That’s unfortunate.

“His [St. Thomas’] teaching above that of others, the canonical writings alone excepted, enjoys such a precision of language, an order of matters, a truth of conclusions, that those who hold to it are never found swerving from the path of truth, and he who dare assail it will always be suspected of error.” --Innocent VI, quoted by Leo XIII in Aeterni Patris
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I appreciate the quotation. I personally like Aquinas but I was wondering as towhether or not, as a Dominican intellectual, one could go outside of his theoretical sphere.
 
dr_silverrose said:
That’s unfortunate.

“His [St. Thomas’] teaching above that of others, the canonical writings alone excepted, enjoys such a precision of language, an order of matters, a truth of conclusions, that those who hold to it are never found swerving from the path of truth, and he who dare assail it will always be suspected of error.” --Innocent VI, quoted by Leo XIII in Aeterni Patris
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Thank you so much for posting that. His writings are called Masterpieces & the Summa that he started writing in 1265, is still being published today, still being used as a tool for teaching. It has been listed #3. in the list of 10 books that most changed history.
#1. The Bible.
#2. The Quran (not my preference, but it did affect history.)
#3. The Summa Theologica

The list goes on with “The Communist Manifesto”, The works of Charles Darwin, etc., etc.

I would say that is the number of Dominicans who find little of use in St. Thomas’ writing is LARGE, beware. :eek:

(oh yes, “neo-Thomists” DON’T count.)
 
dr_silverrose said:
That’s unfortunate.

“His [St. Thomas’] teaching above that of others, the canonical writings alone excepted, enjoys such a precision of language, an order of matters, a truth of conclusions, that those who hold to it are never found swerving from the path of truth, and he who dare assail it will always be suspected of error.” --Innocent VI, quoted by Leo XIII in Aeterni Patris
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There are other philosophies which are acceptable for Catholics such as those of St. Augustine, St. Bonaventure, and even to some extent Descartes and Plato.

Thanks for the replies. It is good to hear that they are orthodox. I’m not sure if they are traditional enough for my heart though. I’ll have to talk to one of their vocational directors some time.
 
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