Mother Mary and Mother Church

[YehoiakhinEx232]

Quite a long time ago, I was engaging in a Marian debate with Protestants, and involved in the debate was the question of whether or not the Woman in Revelation 12 was Our Lady. When I started looking at what the Early Church Fathers said about Revelation 12, I discovered that the vast majority of them saw the Woman in Revelation 12 as representing the Church, rather than Our Lady.

Later on, I was discussing the topic of the Church as mother with other Catholics and someone commented how Mary resembles the Church as they are both described as pure and without wrinkle etc. Later still, I was reading Dr. Carrie Gress’ The Marian Option(Great book by the way!) and she also touches on this. I was wondering if we could discuss this here, what is the relationship between Mother Mary and Mother Church? And what do the Ecclessiolgians, Mariologians, and Saints say about this?

 

[steve-b]

Quite a long time ago, I was engaging in a Marian debate with Protestants, and involved in the debate was the question of whether or not the Woman in Revelation 12 was Our Lady. When I started looking at what the Early Church Fathers said about Revelation 12, I discovered that the vast majority of them saw the Woman in Revelation 12 as representing the Church, rather than Our Lady.

Later on, I was discussing the topic of the Church as mother with other Catholics and someone commented how Mary resembles the Church as they are both described as pure and without wrinkle etc. Later still, I was reading Dr. Carrie Gress’ The Marian Option(Great book by the way!) and she also touches on this. I was wondering if we could discuss this here, what is the relationship between Mother Mary and Mother Church? And what do the Ecclessiolgians, Mariologians, and Saints say about this?

"The Woman in Revelation 12 is part of the fusion imagery/polyvalent symbolism that is found in the book. She has four referents: Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.

She is Israel because she is associated with the sun, the moon, and twelve stars. These symbols are drawn from Genesis 37:9–11, in which the patriarch Joseph has a dream of the sun and moon (symbolizing his father and mother) and stars (representing his brothers), which bow down to him. Taken together, the sun, moon, and twelve stars symbolize the people of Israel.

The Woman is the Church because, as 12:17 tells us, “the rest of her offspring” are those who bear witness to Jesus, making them Christians.

The Woman is Eve because she is part of the three-way conflict also involving her Seed and the Dragon, who is identified with the ancient serpent (the one from Eden) in 20:2. This mirrors the conflict in Genesis 3:15 between Eve, the serpent, and her unborn seed—which in turn is a symbol of the conflict between Mary, Satan, and Jesus.

Finally, the Woman is Mary because she is the mother of Jesus, the child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron (19:11–16)."
From The Woman of Revelation 12 | Catholic Answers

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

I’m asking about Our Lady in general, representing Mother Church, how various Ecclesiologians and Mariologians recognize the link between Mary being a pure, spotless Mother, and the Church being a pure spotless Mother.

Do you have anything on that?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The Church is all of us.

Mary is the mother of all of us. Jesus gave her to us as He hung on the cross.

Thus Mary is the mother of the Church.

 

[steve-b]

I’m asking about Our Lady in general, representing Mother Church, how various Ecclesiologians and Mariologians recognize the link between Mary being a pure, spotless Mother, and the Church being a pure spotless Mother.

Do you have anything on that?

Re: Mary,
I would just say,

By God’s choice, and grace, He came to US, into the world, incarnated in human flesh born through Mary. And since The angel Gabriel (Lk 1:28) addresses Mary as Hail Kecharitomene (full of grace) before she says anything, this tells us how God sees her. It’s a title for her, and the word is a past perfect participle. Meaning she has been full of grace from her beginning, to present, and on into the future.

Re: the Church as spotless. the article I used had as an analogy, “The Woman is the Church because, as 12:17 tells us, “the rest of her offspring” are those who bear witness to Jesus”

That’s a lot of children!!!

But nothing is said, nor hinted, of all those children as being spotless. Only one Child came from her womb. And He was spotless.

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

I mean Mary representing or symbolizing the Church in someway, as both are not only Mothers, but Our Mothers.

 

[PJM]

My friend, here is what Jesus Himself thinks about your question.

John 19: [26] "When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. [27] After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own. [28] Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst"

What’s going on here?

Here Jesus is giving to the entire world His Mother as our Spiritual Mother. WHY?

Note the “I thirst” at the end of verse #28

Seconds before death Jesus shouts “I THIRST”

What Jesus was Teaching here that despite, perhaps even because of ALL that He has already done for humanity; He Jesus [GOD} desired to do even more

THAT More is manifested in this manner

His Catholic Church 7 Faith through the Apostles
The 7 Sacraments
& Mary as our Mother and Intercessor par-excellence

Mary as Mother of Heaven & Earth, is certainly the Mother of Her Son [the Kings] Kingdom of both heaven and earth. With the same certitude we ca be assured that She is also Mother of His Church [queen].

Mary resembles the Church which reflects Christ as being “Perfect.” Mary is the only truly, fully human being ever. The Church cannot sin; & Mary never SINNED.

God Bless you
Patrick

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of twelve stars: And being with child, she cried travailing in birth and was in pain to be delivered.And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne. Revelation 12:1-2/5. This part of the visions seems to correlate to the Blessed Virgin. The next part where the woman descends to the earth seems to represent the Holy Catholic Church.And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman, who brought forth the man child: And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman, water as it were a river; that he might cause her to be carried away by the river. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the river, which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was angry with the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[steve-b]

I mean Mary representing or symbolizing the Church in someway, as both are not only Mothers, but Our Mothers.

We refer to the Church as mother Church. Why? The Wisdom of Mother Church | Catholic Answers The son of God, and son of Mary, is the one who established His one and only Church. Therefore MARY is the mother of the Church Jesus established. As mentioned before, “The Woman is the Church because, as 12:17 tells us, “the rest of her offspring” are those who bear witness to Jesus”

That’s a lot of children!!! That’s us.