Mother Mary as perpetual Virgin

[Rozellelily]

I don’t want this to sound disrespectful but I find it hard to grasp the idea of Mother Mary as lifelong virgin primarily because of the culture and times that she was born in in the Middle East.

It was expected that women would have children and to only had Jesus ,one child,in a society where women likely had many kids-wouldn’t this have raised curiosity and nosy questions or gossip considering that a lot of the women’s talk would have revolved around their families and children?

Also The Holy families parents would have lived with them,potentially sleeping in the same room on mats so they surely would have known if they were not having “relations” or at least would have had to support it?

I’ve heart it mentioned that Mother Marys Mother was a virgin too but there’s no mention of this in the Bible?
Also,perhaps Joseph was a very older man-if so does that mean he had children from previous marriage?
It just seems unrealistic that he wouldn’t in this society as expectations were grow up,get married fairly early,then have children etc…
An old bachelor in this society and times would be unlikely?

So many deep questions
Thanks

 

[TheBomb.Com]

I believe there were sexless marriages in the Middle East at the time, where a young virgin needed protection from being raped and things like that, so they married themselves to men who vowed to uphold their chastity as well as protect them. We can see why Joseph wanted to keep this quiet if this were the case. Not only would she be accused of adultery, but he would be accused of breaking his vow to protect her.

 

[1ke]

It was expected that women would have children and to only had Jesus ,one child,in a society where women likely had many kids-wouldn’t this have raised curiosity and nosy questions or gossip considering that a lot of the women’s talk would have revolved around their families and children?

Well, basically, so what? Who cares if people gossip. I don’t have any children, and people gossip about me.

Also The Holy families parents would have lived with them,potentially sleeping in the same room on mats so they surely would have known if they were not having “relations” or at least would have had to support it?

Don’t know where you get the idea that Joseph and Mary’s parents lived with them? And if they did, again, SO WHAT? Neither Mary nor Joseph’s parents had to “approve” of anything.

I’ve heart it mentioned that Mother Marys Mother was a virgin too but there’s no mention of this in the Bible?

Don’t know where you heard that. There is nothing in Church teaching or pious tradition regarding such a notion. Mary’s mother had her the usual way, relations with her father.

Also,perhaps Joseph was a very older man-if so does that mean he had children from previous marriage?

That is open to interpretation. There is no evidence of this.

It just seems unrealistic that he wouldn’t in this society as expectations were grow up,get married fairly early,then have children etc…
An old bachelor in this society and times would be unlikely?

I don’t think it is as “unlikely” as you state. Many men worked years (think Jacob) in order to afford to get married. Many men were dedicated to temple service, as were many women.

You seem to be making up a lot of reasons Mary couldn’t be a virgin and then projecting them into the story rather than starting with the fact that the Church teaches this as part of Divine Revelation.

 

[Guest1]

 

[Guest1]

Presentation of Mary - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Guest1]

Here’s a question to ponder on…

When the Angel Gabriel told Mary she was going to have a child… Why did she ask how ?

She was betrothed to Joseph wasn’t she?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Regarding Mary only having one child, there are plenty of married women (or concubines) all through the Bible who had no children, or only one or two children. In that day and age, there were likely women, and husbands of women, who had all kinds of malnutrtition and reproductive system issues that were not diagnosable or treatable and resulted in the woman not conceiving and bearing a child. I doubt that having only one child was an unusual thing.

On top of that, children often didn’t live to grow up, so someone seeing a couple with one child who didn’t know them personally had no way of knowing if perhaps they had had 10 other children who all died.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

When the Angel Gabriel told Mary she was going to have a child… Why did she ask how ?

She was betrothed to Joseph wasn’t she?

She was still a virgin. She and Joseph hadn’t had sex.
(And according to some traditions, Mary was already planning to remain a perpetual virgin and Joseph was marrying her with the understanding that her virginity would be preserved.)

She understood the angel was telling her that she was going to conceive right then.
Naturally she asked how this would happen since she had no relations with a man.

 

[Rozellelily]

But then wouldn’t people be asking who was the father of Jesus if they didn’t believe it was Joseph?

 

[stpurl]

I think Guest was actually getting at exactly what you said; if Mary was betrothed to Joseph and expecting to have a normal marriage with normal sexual relations, why on earth would she ask the Angel, “How can this be”? The Angel said “you shall conceive” (future tense, even if ‘future’ is just a moment away’) and considering Jewish history, such as Abram and Sarah being told that she would conceive a child in her old age, probably meant that Mary was pondering the way in which God would acknowledge her vow of virginity and how she and Joseph, since they were not planning relations, were to cooperate with God knowing that the conception, unless God ‘disavowed’ the vow of virginity, would certainly not happen ‘in the usual way’. Mary certainly knew the facts of life!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Well, yes, I’m sure Mary knew where babies come from, if that was the question.

I always took the passage as the angel saying she would conceive right then. Not later when/ if she was living in Joseph’s home.

And in fact, having given her consent, she did conceive right then and had to explain it to Joseph.

If one accepts the tradition that Mary had been dedicated to God since childhood by her parents, and Joseph had married with the understanding that her virginity would be preserved for life, then your answer would apply. As that tradition is outside Scripture and not part of the formal teaching of the Church, so Catholics don’t have to believe it, I never relied on that tradition.

 

[Rozellelily]

Well, basically, so what? Who cares if people gossip. I don’t have any children, and people gossip about me.

I’m very sorry that that’s the case.Some people can be very insensitive.

Don’t know where you get the idea that Joseph and Mary’s parents lived with them? And if they did, again, SO WHAT? Neither Mary nor Joseph’s parents had to “approve” of anything.

People of this background and times are not like American people.There were no modern beds etc.Poorer families often had elderly parents living with them as do some European,Middle Eastern and Asian families still today.

Don’t know where you heard that. There is nothing in Church teaching or pious tradition regarding such a notion. Mary’s mother had her the usual way, relations with her father.

Sorry I must have got it confused.For some reason I thought she was a virgin too.

You seem to be making up a lot of reasons Mary couldn’t be a virgin and then projecting them into the story rather than starting with the fact that the Church teaches this as part of Divine Revelation.

I’m not denying the Churches teaching.Im just saying I personally find it hard to understand.

 

[stpurl]

Oh, that’s fine. I always did accept that tradition, though; Mary had vowed virginity, she and Joseph had never planned on a consummated marriage, and the reason she asked “how” was, unlike Zechariah, not an incredulous disbelief, but a 'God, you know my situation and Joseph’s, just tell me what you want me to do".

 

[Rozellelily]

Thanks Tisbearself.They are good points.

 

[Totus_tuus118]

Its a divinely revealed dogma of the Church , whether one has a hard time believing it or not means nothing, God has revealed this truth through the Church that Mary was indeed a perpetual virgin.

She gave herself completly to God and her divine spouse the Holy Spirit.

CCC 506 - ‘‘Mary is a virgin because her virginity is the sign of her faith “unadulterated by any doubt”, and of her undivided gift of herself to God’s will.’’

 

[1ke]

People of this background and times are not like American people.There were no modern beds etc.Poorer families often had elderly parents living without as do some European,Middle Eastern and Asian families still today.

Yes, extended families did live together and still do in many placed.

But there is NO Church teaching on this. So it is all just mere speculation.

 

[Rozellelily]

It’s good to understand thinks though because even Muslims could say the same thing about their Quran-ie:”ie:it just is that way because it says so”.

 

[Gorgias]

She was still a virgin. She and Joseph hadn’t had sex.

Ahh, but the angel asserted conception in the future, not at the present. If you’re espoused to a man with whom you intend to share marital relations, why do you ask “how?”…

She understood the angel was telling her that she was going to conceive right then.

Eisegesis. Gabriel uses future tense for “will conceive” and “will bear”. If the inspired writer of Scripture had wanted us to understand ‘present’, then he would have used a present tense verb (e.g., “you are conceiving”). He didn’t. Moreover, if it were present tense, that would imply that the Church’s teaching of Mary’s fiat was in error. After all, if Gabriel were merely reporting to Mary what was already happening, and not asking her to assent to a soon-to-be event, then there’d be no ‘fiat’ to be given.

Worse yet, it’s eisegesis that presumes that Mary fundamentally misunderstood the message.

As that tradition is outside Scripture and not part of the formal teaching of the Church, so Catholics don’t have to believe it, I never relied on that tradition.

Hang on a second: are you really saying that it’s not part of the Church’s teaching that Mary didn’t intend perpetual virginity?

People of this background and times are not like American people.There were no modern beds etc.Poorer families often had elderly parents living without as do some European,Middle Eastern and Asian families still today.

The understanding of the Church is that Joseph was a (relatively elderly) widower. So, we wouldn’t expect his parents to have been alive at the time of his marriage to Mary.

Tradition (granted, not Scriptural tradition, and not “big-T” tradition) asserts that Mary, too, was born of parents who had not been able to conceive throughout their marriage, and therefore, it’s not unreasonable to suggest that they, too, may not have been alive to see Jesus’ birth. Is that a definite answer? Of course not – none of this is written down authoritatively, per se. But… it does flow with the teaching traditions of the Church.

God has revealed this truth through the Church that Mary was indeed a perpetual virgin.

Sure. But, I think that the question that @Tis_Bearself is raising is whether Mary perpetually intended to be a perpetual virgin. It’s an interesting question.

 

[Rozellelily]

Generally speaking,did any Jews in this time commit to being lifelong virgins?
Also,was it the same for men as for women?

If it was the case,and Joseph was a committed virgin(?) did people then just assume that he changed his mind when he married Mary and had Jesus?

The Bible doesn’t really go into any of this deeply.

 

[Rozellelily]

The understanding of the Church is that Joseph was a (relatively elderly) widower. So, we wouldn’t expect his parents to have been alive at the time of his marriage to Mary.

That makes a bit more sense.