Mother of God - Brother of God?

[thessalonian]

I was just thinking a bit. Maybe a bit too much. It is said in scripture that Jesus is our brother. We are also called sons of God. So why should many Protestants be offended at Mary being called the Mother of God. Are we not told that anyone who does God’s will is his “mother, sister, brother” etc. Further they believe that James and Joses and Simon and Judas were Christ’s litteral brothers. I would like to see some time if they would be bothered by calling these four “brothers of God”. I don’t know maybe this is silly but I would like to see some comments on it. . It’s a twist on the Mother of God discussion I have not seen before.

Blessings

 

[EA_Man]

thessalonian:

I was just thinking a bit. Maybe a bit too much. It is said in scripture that Jesus is our brother. We are also called sons of God. So why should many Protestants be offended at Mary being called the Mother of God. Are we not told that anyone who does God’s will is his “mother, sister, brother” etc. Further they believe that James and Joses and Simon and Judas were Christ’s litteral brothers. I would like to see some time if they would be bothered by calling these four “brothers of God”. I don’t know maybe this is silly but I would like to see some comments on it. . It’s a twist on the Mother of God discussion I have not seen before.

Blessings

Protestants of course believe that Mary gave birth to Jesus. Most Protestants that I know don’t object to the term Mother of God, they object to some of the Catholic doctrine surrounding that title.

Peace

 

[thessalonian]

EA_Man:

Protestants of course believe that Mary gave birth to Jesus. Most Protestants that I know don’t object to the term Mother of God, they object to some of the Catholic doctrine surrounding that title.

Peace

Most online Protestants and Protestant Apologists do. James White, Eric Svedson, William Webster to name a few.

 

[EA_Man]

thessalonian:

Most online Protestants and Protestant Apologists do. James White, Eric Svedson, William Webster to name a few.

Hmm…interesting…

If I read Svendsen correctly, he objects to the term on the grounds that Mary “mothered” Christ’s humanity. He states that Christ’s divinity has no parentage.

He does make a good point actually…

Peace

 

[Mickey]

EA_Man:

He states that Christ’s divinity has no parentage.

He does make a good point actually…

I think the point he makes is the same point made by Nestorius. Isn’t the separation of Christ’s humanity and divinity known as the nestorian heresy?

 

[EA_Man]

Mickey:

I think the point he makes is the same point made by Nestorius. Isn’t the separation of Christ’s humanity and divinity known as the nestorian heresy?

I don’t believe that noting the distiction of the natures in the hypostatic union qualifies as Nestorian. Else how would we describe the hypostatic union to begin with?

Peace

 

[bengal_fan]

thessalonian:

Most online Protestants and Protestant Apologists do. James White, Eric Svedson, William Webster to name a few.

naming 3 hardly qualifies as “most”. most certainly do not have a problem with the title “mother of God”, but the loud minority are what we hear and see more of.

 

[JimG]

EA_Man:

If I read Svendsen correctly, he objects to the term on the grounds that Mary “mothered” Christ’s humanity. He states that Christ’s divinity has no parentage.

Of course, the same point could be made about any human parentage. Natures don’t have parentage; persons do.

My mother did not create my soul. Therefore, do I say that she is the mother only of my body? But I am one person, composed of body and soul, and I have a mother whom I call my mother.

Jesus is one person who has one mother. That one person has two natures–human and divine–but he is not two persons. Mary did not make either his human soul or his divinity, yet she is His mother!

 

[Joe_Kelley]

EA_Man:

I don’t believe that noting the distiction of the natures in the hypostatic union qualifies as Nestorian. Else how would we describe the hypostatic union to begin with?

Peace

The Council of Ephesus declared Mary the Mother of God and condemned Nestorius who claimed she was mother of only the human nature of Jesus.

 

[EA_Man]

JimG:

Of course, the same point could be made about any human parentage. Natures don’t have parentage; persons do.

My mother did not create my soul. Therefore, do I say that she is the mother only of my body? But I am one person, composed of body and soul, and I have a mother whom I call my mother.

Jesus is one person who has one mother. That one person has two natures–human and divine–but he is not two persons. Mary did not make either his human soul or his divinity, yet she is His mother!

As I said Mary is the mother of God - it all depends on what you mean by it. Protestants that eschew this title do so because they feel that it is a loaded phrase. Those that don’t shy away from it use it only as a statement of relation such as “Joan is the mother of Sam”.

Peace

 

[thessalonian]

EA_Man:

Hmm…interesting…

If I read Svendsen correctly, he objects to the term on the grounds that Mary “mothered” Christ’s humanity. He states that Christ’s divinity has no parentage.

He does make a good point actually…

Peace

So his divinity left his body as it passed through the BIRTH canal or what. Mother’s give birth. So what’s your point. Do you deny that she gave birth to God? Do you deny that God was in her womb for the nine previous months? Or did he become God after the birth. The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary was the mother of Christ from all eternity in the sense that she was before him so his arguement would be a straw man and so is yours. How stupid do you and he think the Catholic Church is?

Yes, the arguement dividing humanity from divinity is nestorian.

 

[EA_Man]

thessalonian:

The arguement dividing humanity from divinity is nestorian.

How do you explain the Hypostatic Union? What is united if Christ does not have two natures?

That’s my point. You cannot even begin to discuss the Hypostatic Union without acknowledging that there were two natures in the first place. And if the charge of Nestorianism is to be raised at the mere mention of two natures, then you preclude any explanation of the Hypostatic Union.

Peace

 

[conrad01]

Mickey:

I think the point he makes is the same point made by Nestorius. Isn’t the separation of Christ’s humanity and divinity known as the nestorian heresy?

I believe that the Council of Chalcedon said that He gets His divinity or deity from God, and His humanity from his mother.

E_A Man is right.

 

[thessalonian]

EA_Man:

How do you explain the Hypostatic Union? What is united if Christ does not have two natures?

That’s my point. You cannot even begin to discuss the Hypostatic Union without acknowledging that there were two natures in the first place. And if the charge of Nestorianism is to be raised at the mere mention of two natures, then you preclude any explanation of the Hypostatic Union.

Peace

My point is Svedson’s objection has nothing to do with Catholic theology, despite his rantings to the contrary.

 

[adventistnomore]

EA_Man:

Protestants of course believe that Mary gave birth to Jesus. Most Protestants that I know don’t object to the term Mother of God, they object to some of the Catholic doctrine surrounding that title.

Peace

I don’t get it though… what “doctrine surrounding that title”!? The proper use of “Theotokos” as defined by the Council of Ephesus is ALL the theology we have concerning the title. If they object to “Mediatrix of all graces, Co-Redemptrix,” etc., alright then. But how is the title “misused” by the Church that dogmatically approved its orthodox use – the same use that Anglicans, Lutherans, & Refomed Protestants uphold, etc.

 

[adventistnomore]

EA_Man:

Hmm…interesting…

If I read Svendsen correctly, he objects to the term on the grounds that Mary “mothered” Christ’s humanity. He states that Christ’s divinity has no parentage.

He does make a good point actually…

Peace

Perfect example… THIS IS where Nestorius got confused, and why he objected to the title. The Council of Ephesus corrected his error, and defined Christian orthodoxy. Progressively, Protestantism disconnected itself from the theological tradition of the Church & its councils, and have recycled all former errors/heresies to one degree or another. The issue is not the Catholics have “misused” the title “Theotokos”… its that Svedsen, disconnected from the theological tradition of the Church, and prejudiced against it, embraces the heresy of Nestorianism.

 

[Milliardo]

adventistnomore:

Perfect example… THIS IS where Nestorius got confused, and why he objected to the title. The Council of Ephesus corrected his error, and defined Christian orthodoxy. Progressively, Protestantism disconnected itself from the theological tradition of the Church & its councils, and have recycled all former errors/heresies to one degree or another. The issue is not the Catholics have “misused” the title “Theotokos”… its that Svedsen, disconnected from the theological tradition of the Church, and prejudiced against it, embraces the heresy of Nestorianism.

Amen! Completely true. Protestantism’s rejection of the title Mother of God then not only rejects the ancient belief of the Church and the Councils, but the Bible as well. Luke 1:43 shows us that Elizabeth, inspired by the Holy Spirit (cf. Luke 1:41) said to Mary: “How should this be, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Strange that Protestants should object to Mary as Mother of God when it’s not only implicit, but indeed explicitly stated in the Bible.

 

[Axion]

conrad01:

I believe that the Council of Chalcedon said that He gets His divinity or deity from God, and His humanity from his mother.

E_A Man is right.

EA Man is wrong on this, if he is imputing that Mary is not fully and completely Mother of Jesus Christ, God the Son.

The fact that Jesus has two natures makes no difference at all. Every child has elements of its personhood contributed by one parent, and other elements from the other. This does not lessen the fact that the child’s mother is completely its mother, and its father is completely its father.

 

[Mickey]

adventistnomore:

Perfect example… THIS IS where Nestorius got confused, and why he objected to the title. The Council of Ephesus corrected his error, and defined Christian orthodoxy. Progressively, Protestantism disconnected itself from the theological tradition of the Church & its councils, and have recycled all former errors/heresies to one degree or another. The issue is not the Catholics have “misused” the title “Theotokos”… its that Svedsen, disconnected from the theological tradition of the Church, and prejudiced against it, embraces the heresy of Nestorianism.

This is right on point!

 

[conrad01]

adventistnomore:

Perfect example… THIS IS where Nestorius got confused, and why he objected to the title. The Council of Ephesus corrected his error, and defined Christian orthodoxy. Progressively, Protestantism disconnected itself from the theological tradition of the Church & its councils, and have recycled all former errors/heresies to one degree or another. The issue is not the Catholics have “misused” the title “Theotokos”… its that Svedsen, disconnected from the theological tradition of the Church, and prejudiced against it, embraces the heresy of Nestorianism.

Svedsen is prejudiced away; you are prejudiced toward. So we have two prejudices at work.

Mary is never referred to as the Mother of God anywhere in the N.T. She is always referred to as the mother of Jesus (3x).

Your prejudice takes you outside of God’s word with respect to Mary.

Deny it all you want, but that is true.