Mother of God!

[JonNC]

=Judas Thaddeus;11592562]Yeah, but some, maybe many, anti-catholics will say it anyway.

Probably.

First, I did say “Common non-Catholic Christian thought”, not just Lutheran. Second,
Luther is only the first step, technically, away from the Catholic Church, so of course
we would expect commonalities. Third, Lutherans do not think nor have every thought
that the Catholic Church is wrong (Doctrinally)? Deuterocanon, Papal Supremacy, I’ll be happy to hear approval on that from the Lutheran side.

The bolded is a struggle.

I hope you understood that the “quote marks” were indicat-
ing what I infer from anti-marian people, not my own words.

Oh, yes, and I am with you, brother, that the Blessed was so much more, even in scripture, than the Nativity!

Jon

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

The bolded is a struggle.

I see we’re mostly on the same page, bolded is a struggle, interesting, but only applied
to Papacy. We’ve discussed the Deuterocanon before, but let me review. Do you and/or
Lutherans in general accept the Deuterocanon as Scripture, on par with all books in the
Bible, All Books in the Catholic Bible as the Word of God?

 

[JonNC]

I see we’re mostly on the same page, bolded is a struggle, interesting, but only applied
to Papacy. We’ve discussed the Deuterocanon before, but let me review. Do you and/or
Lutherans in general accept the Deuterocanon as Scripture, on par with all books in the
Bible, All Books in the Catholic Bible as the Word of God?

No. An important part of our scriptural heritage? Yes. In fact, I am working my way through them now, using the ESV version with notes, put out by the LCMS. It not only has the DC’s, but some of the Eastern Orthodox books as well. Currently reading Judith.

Jon

 

[SyCarl]

Therein lies the rub: it isn’t too awkward, in Greek (or in Romanian, as I understand it, and possibly some other languages). But to literally translate theotokos into English as “Birthgiver of God” is very awkward.

Of course you are right about the Greek. But in any event they did not choose the Greek for Mother of God, which they could have. It still seems like a deliberate choice on their part.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Of course you are right about the Greek. But in any event they did not choose the Greek for Mother of God, which they could have. It still seems like a deliberate choice on their part.

I found the Wikipedia on this issue very thorough and well done.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos

Theotokos is a compound of two Greek words, Θεός God and τόκος parturition, childbirth. Literally, this translates as God-bearer or the one who gives birth to God; historian Jaroslav Pelikan translated it more precisely as “the one who gives birth to the one who is God”.[7] However, since many English-speaking Orthodox find this literal translation awkward, in liturgical use, Theotokos is often left untranslated, or paraphrased as Mother of God. The latter title is the literal translation of a distinct title in Greek, Μήτηρ του Θεού (translit. Mētēr tou Theou). Mother of God also accurately translates the Greek words Θεομήτωρ (translit. Theomētor; also spelled Θεομήτηρ, translit. Theomētēr) and Μητρόθεος (translit. Mētrotheos), which are found in patristic and liturgical texts, e.g.
… [80] περιφανῶς ἡ ἱερὰ θεομήτωρ ἐξετέλει … [109] ἐκφαντικώτατά σε τὴν θεοτόκον προσημαίνουσαν …[8]
The English term Mother of God is mostly used as an imprecise translation of Theotokos, and frequently requires explanation.[9] The other principal use of Mother of God has been as the precise and literal translation of Μήτηρ Θεού, a Greek term which has an established usage of its own in traditional Orthodox and Catholic theological writing, hymnography, and iconography. In an abbreviated form ΜΡ ΘΥ it often is found on Eastern icons (see illustration above), where it is used to identify Mary.
Within the Orthodox and Catholic tradition, Mother of God has not been understood, nor been intended to be understood, as referring to Mary as Mother of God from eternity — that is, as Mother of God the Father — but only with reference to the birth of Jesus, that is, the Incarnation. This limitation in the meaning of Mother of God must be understood by the person employing the term. To make it explicit, it is sometimes translated Mother of God Incarnate.[10]
However, those reading or hearing the English phrase Mother of God as a translation of a Greek text cannot — unless they know the Greek text in question, or obtain additional information — know whether the phrase is a literal translation of Μήτηρ Θεού or an imprecise rendering of Θεοτόκος or one its Latin equivalents or equivalents in other languages.

 

[Peter_J]

Of course you are right about the Greek. But in any event they did not choose the Greek for Mother of God, which they could have. It still seems like a deliberate choice on their part.

I agree with you on both of those points.

Something else to consider: do you know any protestants who use the literal translation of theotokos, “Birthgiver of God” (as oppose to the less literal “God-bearer”)? If not, then how can you criticize us Catholics for using the inexact translation “Mother of God”?

 

[SyCarl]

I agree with you on both of those points.

Something else to consider: do you know any protestants who use the literal translation of theotokos, “Birthgiver of God” (as oppose to the less literal “God-bearer”)? If not, then how can you criticize us Catholics for using the inexact translation “Mother of God”?

To be honest, recall hearing anyone I know using any of the terms. Presbyterians accept the Council of Ephesus but never talk about it. As far as Mary goes, they just refer to her as Mary, the Virgin Mary or the mother of Jesus.

 

[Peter_J]

To be honest, recall hearing anyone I know using any of the terms. Presbyterians accept the Council of Ephesus but never talk about it. As far as Mary goes, they just refer to her as Mary, the Virgin Mary or the mother of Jesus.

QED.

 

[Della]

Of course you are right about the Greek. But in any event they did not choose the Greek for Mother of God, which they could have. It still seems like a deliberate choice on their part.

The language of the Roman liturgies/prayer life is Latin. And the Latin expression is
Mater Dei. It’s that simple. The Kyrie being the rare exception in the Roman liturgy.

 

[SyCarl]

The language of the Roman liturgies/prayer life is Latin. And the Latin expression is
Mater Dei. It’s that simple. The Kyrie being the rare exception in the Roman liturgy.

However, was the Council of Ephesus done in Greek or Latin?

 

[Della]

However, was the Council of Ephesus done in Greek or Latin?

What difference does that make? The Roman church does its liturgies in Latin, hence Latin is preferred and used. I don’t see how it makes any difference when both terms refer to the same thing–the Incarnation of God in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[Peter_J]

Perhaps SyCarl is referring to the fact that the term Θεοτόκος was used rather than Μήτηρ Θεοῦ.

 

[Della]

Perhaps SyCarl is referring to the fact that the term Θεοτόκος was used rather than Μήτηρ Θεοῦ.

Does it really matter as to the truth of the doctrine? The title was given to Mary to combat a heresy–to affirm that Jesus is fully God and fully man., incarnate of the Virgin Mary That’s all we need to be concerned about, AFAICS.