Mother of God

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Alfie:
Why isn’t the word mother capitalized like the word Lord is? For her to be the mother of God she would have to be sinless. In Luke 1:46, 47 it says Mary spoke these words. “My soul doth magnify the Lord and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior”. She aknowledges that she needs a savior. That means she is not sinless. She is the mother of the human Jesus. She would have to be a spirit to be the mother of God. She isn’t mentioned as being part of the Trinity. God is a spirit. God is the Father of the spirit that resides in the body of Jesus that was placed there by the holy apirit.
You are using human wisdom to support something that you don’t understand.

Know anyone else in scripture whom an angel tell they are “Full of grace”?

Is the sacrifice timeless in that it rolls back and forward in time in it’s effect? What does St. John call Jesus in Revelation 13:8 (among may things!) “…the Lamb, which was slain from the beginning of the world.” If this sacrifice of Christ was before the beginning of the world, then who are we to question that it was applied to the faith of the OT faithful of whom Mary would’ve been one at the time of her birth. Since she is the only person in history to have this unique position, do you suppose that God did not prepare her? The ark of the covenenat carried only the Old Testament of the law, yet look at how pure and holy it was. Do you suppose for a moment that God would not take even more care to purify the one woman that was to be the ark of the New Covenant? His divine Son?

Mary has never been considered divine Alfie and only people who are anti-Catholic say such things as they try to imply that we are deifying her, which is completely ridiculous.

In fact: The three “pillars of the reformation”, Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, all believed that Mary was the mother of God.

Mother of God

Martin Luther: “In this work whereby she was made the Mother of God, so many and such good things were given her that no one can grasp them… Not only was Mary the mother of Him who is born [in Bethlehem], but of Him who, before the world, was eternally born of the Father, from a Mother in time and at the same time man and God.” (The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, Vol. 7, page 572)

John Calvin: “It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of His Son, granted her the highest honor…Elizabeth calls Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God.” (Calvini Opera, Corpus reformatorum, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, Vol. 45, page 348 and 335.)

Ulrich Zwingli: “It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God.” ( Zwingli Opera, Corpus reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. Comp., Vol.
6, I, page 639.)

The Perpetual Virginity of Mary:

Martin Luther: “ It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin… Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact.” ( Works of Luther, Vol. 11, pages 319-320; Vol. 6, page 510.)

John Calvin: “ There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage [Matthew 1:25] that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company… And beside this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second.” (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25. Published in 1562.)

Ulrich Zwingli: “I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel, as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.” ( Zwingli Opera, Vol. 1, page 424.)
Better go back and “study to show thyself approved”. 🙂
 
What you’re proposing is what the Church calls heresy. You can’t seperate Jesus’ humanity from His divinity.
Mary is undoubtedly the Mother of God. That is not my argument. I am not crossing the line of Nestorianism. Other than Fundamentalists, certain Pentecostals and the like most protestants have no problem and actually abide by the hypostatic union.

Perhaps a better way to put it is this…

Person 1.
“Is Mary the Mother of God?”

Person 2.
“Depends on what you mean by Mother.”

Person 1.
‘What do you mean?”

Person 2.
“Are you asking if Mary existed before the Christ and that his soul came into existence upon her conception? Because then the answer is ‘NO’.

Person 1.
“Heavens no… he was uncreated and eternal.”

Person 2.
“Are you asking if she carried God within her womb and that his body was composed of her genetic material?”

Person 1.
“Yes”

Person 2.
“Then Mary is the Mother of God.”
 
What we, as Catholics mean by mother, is that she gave birth to Him (Jesus Christ). It is however scripturally supported that she is the “spouse” of the Holy Spirit, specially chosen by God. 👍

Have a Joyous New Year!
 
I think some Catholics have put her in a place where they no longer have access to identifying with her experiences. They have lost the understanding that she can identify with the experiences and problems of women. Mary had a human nature. :yup:

Get it down to basics-- abortion?
 
Mary, Ark of God???

Revelation 11:19
Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

The ark of the covenant contained stone tablets with the commandments on them and other stuff too. Seeing Mary as a type for ark of the testimony simply does not work. To my knowledge no one died because they touched her (2 Sam. 6:3-10).

Mary was a Jewish lady, and no Jewish person who is truly god fearing would want to be exhalted in the way some catholics do with her image.

If the so-called appearances of Mary were really Mary she would say, I am only a fellow servant like yourself, get up – just like the angel did to John in Revelation.

Also, the ark is forgotten, whereas Mary is called Blessed by all generations.

“And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more” Jeremiah 3:16
 
Revelation 19:10
At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Revelation 22:9
But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”
 
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Jerusha:
I think some Catholics have put her in a place where they no longer have access to identifying with her experiences. They have lost the understanding that she can identify with the experiences and problems of women. Mary had a human nature. :yup:

Get it down to basics-- abortion?
If you think about it, Mary was unmarried woman with child in a time where such was a disgrace with no future to speak of.
 
Daniel Marsh:
Mary, Ark of God???
Mary is the Mother of God, she is the Immaculate Conception.

We (Catholics) understand that it is difficult for protestants to accept this doctrine. It is a declared dogma of the Catholic Church, so in essence, that settles it for us.

We rely on the fact that Jesus promised Peter (the Rock) that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church through the ages and the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

We trust implicitly that guidance with regard to the Holy Father on matters of doctrine and morals.

Dr. Scott Hahn and Dr. Patrick Madrid have made very good scriptural and theological arguments for Mary being the Ark of the new Covenant. One with an open mind and a humble heart would find it hard to disagree with their strong scriptural evidence.
 
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Alfie:
Why isn’t the word mother capitalized like the word Lord is? For her to be the mother of God she would have to be sinless. In Luke 1:46, 47 it says Mary spoke these words. “My soul doth magnify the Lord and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior”. She aknowledges that she needs a savior. That means she is not sinless. She is the mother of the human Jesus. She would have to be a spirit to be the mother of God. She isn’t mentioned as being part of the Trinity. God is a spirit. God is the Father of the spirit that resides in the body of Jesus that was placed there by the holy apirit.
Luke 1.43 “And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me”.
Hey, the word “And” is capitalized. Does that help? My instincts tell me that it doesn’t and that you are bound and determined to continue to deny the plain words of scripture. Okay, you win.
 
Mary, Ark of God???

Revelation 11:19
Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
Daniel Marsh:
The very next verse 12.1 “And a great portent appeared in Heaven, a woman clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of twelve stars”.
12.5 :she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to His throne".
This woman is Mary the new “Ark” giving birth to Jesus, the “Word made flesh”.
You won’t even address the scripture citations I presented to you in post # 6. So here are some more verses for you to dismiss. These are parallel verses from 2 Sam chapter 6 and
Luke chapter 1.
2 Sam 6.2 > Lk.1.39
2 Sam 6.9 > Lk.1.43.
2Sam 6.10 > Lk.1.40
2Sam 6.11 > Lk.1.56
2 Sam 6.12 > Lk.1.47
2 Sam 6.15 > Lk.1.42
2 Sam 6.16 > Lk 1.42 & 44
 
If you think about it, Mary was unmarried woman with child in a time where such was a disgrace with no future to speak of.
She wasn’t unmarried. Under Jewish law she was the wife of Joseph, hence Joseph was going to “divorce her quietly”.
 
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threadkiller:
The very next verse 12.1 “And a great portent appeared in Heaven, a woman clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of twelve stars”.
12.5 :she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to His throne".
This woman is Mary the new “Ark” giving birth to Jesus, the “Word made flesh”.
You won’t even address the scripture citations I presented to you in post # 6. So here are some more verses for you to dismiss. These are parallel verses from 2 Sam chapter 6 and
Luke chapter 1.
2 Sam 6.2 > Lk.1.39
2 Sam 6.9 > Lk.1.43.
2Sam 6.10 > Lk.1.40
2Sam 6.11 > Lk.1.56
2 Sam 6.12 > Lk.1.47
2 Sam 6.15 > Lk.1.42
2 Sam 6.16 > Lk 1.42 & 44
Good point! 👍 Excellent post!
 
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seabird3579:
Dr. Scott Hahn and Dr. Patrick Madrid have made very good scriptural and theological arguments for Mary being the Ark of the new Covenant. One with an open mind and a humble heart would find it hard to disagree with their strong scriptural evidence.
Hi seabird

Christian Sciencists say the same thing about open mind and humble heart, does that make them right?

As for gates of hell, that refers to death. It is death that will not overcome the church because of His ressurrection from the dead.

😉
 
Hi ThreadKiller,

In Luke 1.43 the word Lord simply means “master”, not God.

I noticed that you skipped Rev 12:2

Revelation 11:15-12:5

The Seventh Trumpet
15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign for ever and ever.” 16And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying:
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18The nations were angry; and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your saints and those who reverence your name,
both small and great—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”
19Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Revelation 12
The Woman and the Dragon

1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Rev 11:19 fits with that which preceeds it. Rev 12:1 is a transition away from chapter 11. The increased pain in childbirth in Rev 12:2 shows that Mary was not sinless. Also, in luke Mary calls God her Saviour, only us sinners need a saviour. Others with open and humble mind see the woman of Rev 12 as being the church, not Mary.
 
2 Sam 6:2 He and all his men set out from Baalah of Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the Name, the name of the LORD Almighty, who is enthroned between the cherubim that are on the ark.

Luke 1:39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea,

Your typology fails already, God is above the ark, not represented as only being in the ark. And these two texts have nothing in common.
 
Daniel Marsh:
Hi seabird
Christian Sciencists say the same thing about open mind and humble heart, does that make them right?

As for gates of hell, that refers to death. It is death that will not overcome the church because of His ressurrection from the dead.
It would depend upon the Scriptures and what they derive from them. If they would be disposed to call the gates of hell, death, then no, I would say they are way off the beaten track.

You are free to believe as you wish, but could you really call yourself a “believer” in the classical sense of the word? :rolleyes:

If I’ve said this once, I’ve said it at least 10 times on this Forum, Catholics look to the Magisterium to interpret Scripture correctly for us. We follow the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Should you wish to explore the scripture texts and reasoning behind what we believe, please feel free. It all fits together quite well and brings the majority of Catholics a great deal of peace.

Your outright denial and strange misconstrues really edify no one and frankly they are very unconvincing.

But this is a free country and your are free to remain in your ignorance and refuse solid Catholic teaching. Just don’t expect Catholics to follow your “logic.”
 
In Gates of Hell should be translated as the Gates of Hades. Hades is not Hell – this is a mistranslation. Hades is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew word Sheol. Sheol means ‘grave’, ‘in the ground’ or place of the dead. It is not Hell.

The verse means that I will build this Church and it will not go into the Grave.
 
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