Mother Teresa's "Crisis of Faith"

[JimR-OCDS]

Wow!

One of the things that caught my attention in this article was the reference to a “reparative” dark night that goes beyond the purgative (sense & spirit) dark night defined by St. John of the Cross. Does anyone know anything about this? I’d like to learn more.

I wonder if this “reparative” dark night that Mother Teresa evidently went through might be anything like the trial of faith St. Therese of Lisieux endured in her final days when she was tormented by fears that there is no heaven and that death would only bring her eternal “nothingness.”

Dave.

Dave,
from what I’ve read, and I’ve only read the article posted, I appears to me and the priest who wrote the book says, that no other saint that he’s ever read about, has ever had the level of dark night of the soul, as Mother Teresa. I don’t think St. Theresa,
had this level and her dark night was when she was on her death bed, was it not? If I recall, she came out of it the day or two before her death.

Jim

 

[DBT]

Dave,
from what I’ve read, and I’ve only read the article posted, I appears to me and the priest who wrote the book says, that no other saint that he’s ever read about, has ever had the level of dark night of the soul, as Mother Teresa. I don’t think St. Theresa,
had this level and her dark night was when she was on her death bed, was it not? If I recall, she came out of it the day or two before her death.Jim

Hi Jim -

From the little I’ve been able to read on this so far, I agree with you that there seems to be a difference between the type of night Mother Teresa experienced and St. Therese. Both, to be sure, went through St. John of the Cross’ night of the spirit prior to being brought to perfection, so far as possible in this life, in the transforming union. And both continued to be led by the way of interior suffering - for the good of souls - after being brought to final union.

The key difference between the two though, it would seem, is the length of time each endured their respective suffering. As you note, St. Therese’s trial of faith was incredibly intense but short in duration (perhaps a few months?) compared to Mother Teresa whose crisis of faith lasted most of her adult life.

From what I was able to gather in the link by Fr. Garrigou-LaGrange given previously; the characteristics that make this night “reparative” are as follows:

• It only occurs in souls already brought through the night of the spirit into the transforming union . . . ie, perfected souls.
• It is an intense spiritual desolation and sense of abandonment endured for the sake of souls. It is an entering into an habitual way of suffering that is truly “Christ-like.”
• It is endured over a very long period of time – years or decades.

It was good speaking with you again, Jim

Dave

Ps. From what I’ve read on St. Therese, her night of the spirit occured prior to entering Carmel when she thought all doors to Carmel were closed to her – yet she abandoned herself entirely to God’s will. And, from what I’ve read, most of her time in Carmel was lived in the transforming union. Her trial of faith that occurred just shortly before her death - when she was interiorly mocked by sinners that there was no heaven and death is eternal nothingness - seems to be of similar intensity to Mother Teresa’s crisis of faith, but obviously it didn’t last nearly as long.

 

[DBT]

. . . one last thought:

It would seem, based on the info in the Time article, that there are in fact “three” distinct dark nights. Fr. Garrigou-LaGrange, it appears, supports that view.

1. The night of sense which is experienced by the soul prior to being brought to the way of contemplative prayer. Many souls go through this.
2. The night of spirit which brings the soul to perfection . . . habitual union with God’s will. Relatively few go through this, but more than we might think
3. The “reparative” night which is a special grace given to perfected souls in the way of suffering for the sake of others. This appears to be a very, very rare occurance.

Dave

 

[RobNY]

. . . one last thought:

It would seem, based on the info in the Time article, that there are in fact “three” distinct dark nights. Fr. Garrigou-LaGrange, it appears, supports that view.

1. The night of sense which is experienced by the soul prior to being brought to the way of contemplative prayer. Many souls go through this.
2. The night of spirit which brings the soul to perfection . . . habitual union with God’s will. Relatively few go through this, but more than we might think
3. The “reparative” night which is a special grace given to perfected souls in the way of suffering for the sake of others. This appears to be a very, very rare occurance.

Dave

I thought it was…

night of the senses

night of the soul (active)

night of the soul (passive)

With the reparative part being an additional one. Am I completely off base? I’ll go recheck St. John, but… not right now.

-Rob

 

[DBT]

RobNY:

thought it was…

night of the senses

night of the soul (active)

night of the soul (passive)

Hi Rob -

I think we’re saying the same thing . . . but in different ways. Book 1 of the “Dark Night” deals with the night of the senses which has active characteristics (i.e. mortification/practice of virtue) and passive characteristics (the subtle beginnings of infused prayer). This is the means by which God draws the soul from the state of beginners to that of proficients (i.e. contemplatives). This night is purgative in nature.

Book 2 of the “Dark Night” deals with the night of the spirit which is also purgative in nature, but it is experienced passively . . . in contemplation and contemplative living. This night is a great torment to the soul. It is the experience of being abandoned by God – that the soul’s sense of “oneness” with God experienced in prayer is gone forever.

In the night of the senses we think of God and the soul working together to cut off the “branches” of our sins, weaknesses and imperfections. With the night of the spirit God works, mostly alone, pulling up our remaining weaknesses and imperfections “by the root.” Such a soul reaches the state of union or perfection after leaving this night.

The night of Mother Teresa, on the other hand, is evidently something else entirely. It is not purgative - for she was already perfect - but reparative. The link by Fr. Garrigou-LaGrange explains this far better than I ever could, so I’ll leave the theology of it up to him.

And, of course, nobody says it better than Mother Teresa in her own words. How humbling it is to hear her speak.

Dave.

 

[debraran]

Has anyone thought outside the “religious box” that Mother Theresa had clinical depression that started about the time a lot of depressions do? Many, many times, depression is not so debilitating that you can’t go to work, do what you have to do, it just makes you feel nothing. Many famous people have said they did TV shows, smiled for the camera, but the whole time got no joy out of anything and prayer was empty. My own son talked of smiling “as a mask” for sadness and not enjoying anything, just going through the motions. He didn’t think he was depressed , just thought that is what he was like. That could explain why hers never ended and she felt so cut off.
Fr. Groechel being a psychologist, talks of depression often and how some saints suffered from it. She might of too…

 

[DBT]

Has anyone thought outside the “religious box” that Mother Theresa had clinical depression that started about the time a lot of depressions do?

I think the “heroic” nature of her virtue and external acts of charity (i.e. beyond normal human ability) would argue against that. “Heroic” virtue is a chacteristic of all Saints . . .

Dave.

 

[debraran]

She did have that, she was a wondeful woman, I’ve read a lot about her and her books. But I still felt reading her letters, she wasn’t so much in St. John’s dark night, but depressed. Maybe if she had a break at all, something to help her, but she always felt nothing and SAD, that’s a big thing too. Maybe the fact it started when she became a sister very young was a coinsidence, maybe it was something God wanted for her, but it could of been something chemical and priests understand that too. As Father Groechel said to a caller, God doesn’t lift everyones depression that prays to him, but he does allow you to help yourself. “Take your medicine” he yelled to someone once and “keep doing good works and putting one foot in front of the other”. THAT she did, in a way that still causes me awe.
When many people die, they talk of feeling a euphoria before death, they get happier sometimes. Father saw that with Mother Theresa, he said she started “glimpsing heaven” the last time he saw her a few months before she died. There was a glow about her. I’m glad she died a happy nun.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

One thing she managed to do throughout her trials was to hold a newborn in her arms; talk to it and get a big smile in return. Amazing !

 

[Nordar]

I am just in awe of her!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hi Jim

Dave,

Ps. From what I’ve read on St. Therese, her night of the spirit occured prior to entering Carmel when she thought all doors to Carmel were closed to her – yet she abandoned herself entirely to God’s will. And, from what I’ve read, most of her time in Carmel was lived in the transforming union. Her trial of faith that occurred just shortly before her death - when she was interiorly mocked by sinners that there was no heaven and death is eternal nothingness - seems to be of similar intensity to Mother Teresa’s crisis of faith, but obviously it didn’t last nearly as long.

I think that Theresa’s dark night prior to entering Carmel, was the “Dark Night of Sense,” where her “Dark Night of the Soul,” was while she was on her death bed, and felt as though God had abandoned her. She began to question her “Little Way,” her vocation, and whether her apparition of Mary in the statue, could’ve been a trick by the devil.

St. Bernadette went through a similar dark night of the soul, while on her death bed as well.

I pray if I ever have to go through it, and I believe that we might all have to, that I will have the spiritual strength to make it.

In Carmel
Jim

 

[DBT]

Hi Jim -

That well may be true . . . it’s difficult, sometimes, getting to the bottom of St. Therese since so much of her interior life remained hidden even in the midst of her writing about it

The point of view I put forward was presented by Fr. Guy Gaucher in “John and Therese: Flames of Love.” He attempted to describe St. Therese’s spiritual progress in St. John’s terms.

From what I recall of his writing, here are his basic points:

1. St. Therese’s night of sense was the period in her adolecence coinciding with her Christmas conversion when she began to turn away from her self-love and her willful nature.
2. The night of spirit was the period of profound darkness she endured when her uncle denied his permission for her to enter Carmel. In fact, this experience is the only time I recall St. Therese ever using the term “dark night of the soul” in the context of her own spiritual life.

This was also the time when St. Therese lost the sense of presence with God in prayer and only absence remained in the form of dryness, airidity and the loss of consolation. She described this as “Christ going to sleep in his little boat.” Since the night of spirit can *only be understood *in the context of contemplative prayer - and the fact that her contemplative prayer changed dramatically from “presence” to “absence” at this time - would strongly indicate this period was the night Therese herself described.

1. Union was found in her life in Carmel . . . culminating in the “discovery” of her Little Way and the realization of “My vocation is love.” She reached the spiritual summit with her offering to Merciful Love. Despite her profound mystical discoveries, all remained “dark” to her. God was with her always; but instead of walking with her side-by-side, he was standing behind her unseen gently pushing her forward.
2. Her deathbed crisis was the type of interior suffering experienced by some souls already brought to the transforming union. Both St. John and St. Teresa talk about these type of additional sufferings given to perfected souls. The key point Fr. Gaucher makes in his analysis is the language St. Therese herself used to describe it. She did not call it a “dark night” – that came earlier – but rather she called it her “trial of faith.”

But none of this really matters to the context of this thread

I’m sure there are differing opinions but for what it’s worth . . .

Dave.

 

[DBT]

I pray if I ever have to go through it, and I believe that we might all have to, that I will have the spiritual strength to make it.

In Carmel
Jim

Hi Jim -

I hear 'ya

At the risk of sucking up even more oxygen on this thread I thought I’d share a story you might appreciate. Earlier this spring when our Secular Carmelite community was on retreat, Father made the most remarkable statement. He said:

"It is our solemn duty to live our lives from the 6th mansions (night of spirit) and the 7th mansions (transforming union).

The “thud” you might have heard was the collective sound of 40 or more souls simultaneously falling out of their chairs in a giant heap

Very few Carmelites I know would probably think this way by nature but Fathers point was simple: We tend to make the teachings of St. John and St. Teresa as something almost mythical and unattainable . . . surely not something for any of us Father’s point, however, is that all souls are called to union with God and the teachings of the Saints are given to us by the Church not to show what we can’t do . . . but what we can with our simple “Yes” to the action of God’s grace in our hearts.

At the risk of oversimplyfing, the Night of Spirit as presented by St. John of the Cross is something I believe many souls right here on these forums have experienced. At it’s most basic level, St. John describes the night of the spirit like this:

God brings a soul to the way of contemplative prayer. For a period of time this soul experiences a tremendous sense of interior joy, peace and oneness with God. The soul feels it has arrived at the summit of the spiritual life. Then, suddenly, God disappears. The sense of “presence” the soul formally felt in contemplative prayer is now nothing but “absence” – the soul has been abandoned by God and is no where to be found leaving the soul in dryness and airidity. From time to time, God might come back to this soul bringing sweet consolation with His presence. But His return is only fleeting and designed to strengthen us in this journey because souls in the night of the spirit are still spiritually weak. As soon as He comes, He will leave again, leaving the soul in desolation once again.

This ebb and flow between “presence” and “absence” experienced in contemplative prayer over a prolonged period of time is the essence of the night of the spirit. But we might not experience this as dramatically as the Saints who describe it . . . so we think we must experience something else. But I believe the reality is closer to what RobNY said earlier in this thread . . . we might not be like Mother Teresa but we can still be “lesser saints.”

I probably wouldn’t have mentioned this because these sentiments might be considered controversial by some. But I feel like I’m on fairly safe ground with this because I heard Fr. Deeny - worldwide head of the Carmelite Secular order - express exactly this same point of view in our community meeting last week.

Just some more random thoughts . . .

In Carmel,
Dave.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Dave,


The Spiritual Canticle of St. John of the Cross, expresses it all.

Anyway, I don’t want to deep six the thread on this…

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Jim

 

[blessedstar]

The duration of this desolation is not what is key, but the intensity of it. I would say that it would be preferable to have a leg cut off than to endure a second of this desolation.

St Therese may have had a short period of this desolation, but in a short time the desolation can be so intense. Years of desolation may not be of the same intensity but to endure in it is just as difficult as if the intensity was great for a shorter period.

Our Lord hung on the Cross for six hours and in that endured greater desolation than any other, save our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary.

In any case none have endured the desolation in intensity as Jesus and His Blessed Mother. St John and the Magdalene partook also in this desolation to a very great degree as God allowed them to partake and endure.

This is to truly stand at the foot of the Cross with Jesus and the narrowest of the narrow road by which to enter by the gate.

In my Living Prayer of life

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The duration of this desolation is not what is key, but the intensity of it. I would say that it would be preferable to have a leg cut off than to endure a second of this desolation.

St Therese may have had a short period of this desolation, but in a short time the desolation can be so intense. Years of desolation may not be of the same intensity but to endure in it is just as difficult as if the intensity was great for a shorter period.

Our Lord hung on the Cross for six hours and in that endured greater desolation than any other, save our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary.

In any case none have endured the desolation in intensity as Jesus and His Blessed Mother. St John and the Magdalene partook also in this desolation to a very great degree as God allowed them to partake and endure.

This is to truly stand at the foot of the Cross with Jesus and the narrowest of the narrow road by which to enter by the gate.

In my Living Prayer of life

You have said it well!

God Bless
Jim

 

[blessedstar]

You have said it well!

God Bless
Jim

Thank you Jim and it is good to see you and speak with you again. I have thought of you often and thought of private messaging you but I didn’t like to intrude. It is obvious to me you love Jesus greatly, anyone who reads your posts cannot fail to see that, a tender and loving heart as yours. If we ever differ on these forums again we must see it as mere difference and agree to disagree because I thank God for you greatly and keep you in the Living Prayer of my life. In this world where so few love Jesus deeply, you are one who loves Him greatly. I am ancient observance also and so we are closer than at perhaps first thought.

Thank you Jim and in the Living Prayer of my life.

 

[onenow1]

HI, All
I think these verses tell it all.

Philippians 2:
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning,
15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,

Can anyone deny this light to the world.

Mother Teresa please pray for us !

Peace, Onenow1

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I was listening to a talk radio show from Boston, where the host was discussing this subject. The host says he was never raised with religion, and he finds it confusing that Mother Teresa, lost faith and didn’t have any joy in her life, which he thought was what religion was suppose to bring.

Of course, the host misunderstood the article, and Catholics who called in, not understanding spiritual life all that well, didn’t help.

One guy called in and said that Mother Teresa turned out to be the biggest atheist in history.

I feared that this article would get distorted and that people would misunderstand the issue. Although the times reporter did a fair job, her own lack of understanding on spiritual matters such as the “Dark Night,” would limit her ability to provide the full picture, of what went on in Mother Teresa’s life.

Of course we know, Mother Teresa never stopped believing in God. She never lost faith, even though she had moments of doubt.

However, I think it would’ve been better had the author had waited to released the book, rather than allow the secular media to review it before hand.

For all we know, included in the book is not only Mother Teresa’s letters of doubt, but also her letters of confirmation in her faith.

The book will be a must read for me, thats for sure and perhaps the marketing strategy that the publishers played with, to increase the sales, when it does release.

Jim

 

[mschrank]

Has anyone thought outside the “religious box” that Mother Theresa had clinical depression that started about the time a lot of depressions do?

Why do you see them as mutually exclusive? We live through and suffer with our bodies. The religious box you speak of is nothing less than a sacramental lifting up of matter and ‘chemicals’ to God Himself.

You need to read Theology of the Body.