Mothers Day: Report from a Mormon ward (parish)

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teancum79 said:
I was countering your appeal to numbers.
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Then you misunderstand. I wasn’t making “an appeal” to numbers strictly for the sake of numbers. It’s not just about numbers. The evidentiary weight of the Early Church Fathers, all the Apostles and the Disciples of the Apostles have much greater weight, including eyewitness testimony in some cases, than anything produced by Joseph Smith. That’s just a fact.

Coupled with the utter absence of any independent evidence of the claims of Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, etc. ~ whether it be archeological evidence, DNA, etc. the whole Mormon story falls flat. In contrast, the Catholic church has abundant independent archeological and documentary evidence available. There’s simply no comparison.

To reduce it to a numbers game is intellectually dishonest. It may be simple, and the simplistic nature of “numbers” may be appealing to some, but it is intellectually dishonest. To me, reducing it to a contest of numbers merely appears to be yet another diversionary tactic designed to distract from the fact that there is no evidence to support the Joseph Smith story or the Book of Mormon.
 
zerinus said:
Why did God create the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden at all? Why did He allow the devil to tempt them to partake of it?

zerinus
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**396 **God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.
Man’s first sin
**397 **Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness. 398 In that sin man *preferred *himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.
 
rmcmullan said:
This is where the
Catholics/Protestants and the Mormons differ. LDS doctrine is that Adam and Eve could not have children in the garden of Eden. Infact, we believe there was no birth or death at all (i.e animals and plants) until the fall. It’s from a scripture in Alma and I can quote it if you’re interested.

So the commandment to not partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and to go forth and multiply were contradicting commandments. They had to choose.
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What utter nonsense. How can you possibly accept the premise that God issued contradicting commandments to Adam & Eve? God does not work that way. He doesn’t play games with us like that, but that is exactly what you are suggesting.

Wow, if this is really the LDS interpretation of the Fall I think the Mormons owe the world an apology! This erroneus Mormon scriptural interpretation does great harm to the text. We can easily infer from the biblical record that Adam and Eve could have had children without the Fall. First we know that they were given the commandment to be fruitfull and multiply. Second, we know that one of the consequences of the Fall was that pain during childbirth would greatly increase. This implies that childbirth without the Fall would have been less painful, and that can only be true if childbirth prior to the Fall was possible to begin with.

This is yet one more sad example of how false Mormon scripture can take the beautiful truths of the bible and twist them into half-truths or even outright lies. So there was no contradiction of commandments. To suggest so makes God into some kind of sadist. Mormons should be ashamed of this rediculous interpretation of Genesis.
 
Chris, when God is married and has numerous wives, and lives on or near Kolob (I’ve heard various versions ~ but not to be confused with BSG & Kobol ~ or maybe it should be) and we were all once spirit children of this God, called Heavenly Father, and his wife, Heavenly Mother, when you believe all that, the Mormon Garden of Eden story fits right in.

When God/Heavenly Father has a body of flesh and bone and has a separate physical body from Jesus (and the Holy Spirit is yet a 3rd “personage”) and when the sacrifice of Jesus is acknowledged but He is not worshiped, when you believe all that, the Mormon Garden of Eden story fits right in.

When God/Heavenly Father is not eternal, but is an exalted man, who once was human like us, the Mormon Garden of Eden story fits right in. When you “translate” scriptures using a “peep stone”, scriptures written in gold of dubious portability that you supposedly got from an Angel (that would most likely be the “Angel” warned about by St. Paul in Galatians 1) the Mormon Garden of Eden story fits right in.

Maybe Joseph Smith is the 12th Cylon 😃
 
MelanieAnne said:
Then you misunderstand. I wasn’t making “an appeal” to numbers strictly for the sake of numbers. It’s not just about numbers. The evidentiary weight of the Early Church Fathers, all the Apostles and the Disciples of the Apostles have much greater weight, including eyewitness testimony in some cases, than anything produced by Joseph Smith. That’s just a fact.

Coupled with the utter absence of any independent evidence of the claims of Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, etc. ~ whether it be archeological evidence, DNA, etc. the whole Mormon story falls flat. In contrast, the Catholic church has abundant independent archeological and documentary evidence available. There’s simply no comparison.

To reduce it to a numbers game is intellectually dishonest. It may be simple, and the simplistic nature of “numbers” may be appealing to some, but it is intellectually dishonest. To me, reducing it to a contest of numbers merely appears to be yet another diversionary tactic designed to distract from the fact that there is no evidence to support the Joseph Smith story or the Book of Mormon.
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You know I can almost see a similar conversation about 2k years ago. The Sanhedrin (sp) had the history the education and the evidence supporting their claims. a few uneducated people started causing problems with unbelievable stories that where contrary to what they wanted. None of that changed that FACT that Christ and his apostles where right. The same is true today no amount of “history” real or made up will alter the facts of Christ restoring his church through the prophet Joseph Smith. Some will accept this and many other will not, but just as in the days of Christ who believes or not will have no impact on the truth.
 
The same is true today no amount of “history” real or made up will alter the facts of Christ restoring his church through the prophet Joseph Smith.
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There are no ‘facts’ that Christ restored His Church throught the prophet Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith ever faces Christ, he will have to justify his false claims to the Lord.
 
teancum79 said:
You know I can almost see a similar conversation about 2k years ago. The Sanhedrin (sp) had the history the education and the evidence supporting their claims. a few uneducated people started causing problems with unbelievable stories that where contrary to what they wanted. None of that changed that FACT that Christ and his apostles where right. The same is true today no amount of “history” real or made up will alter the facts of Christ restoring his church through the prophet Joseph Smith. Some will accept this and many other will not, but just as in the days of Christ who believes or not will have no impact on the truth.
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There’s a huge difference Teancum. There’s evidence for Jesus Christ and His Apostles, their disciples, the Early Church Fathers, etc. ~ there’s literally mountains of evidence, preserved by scholars for hundreds of years. Jesus, by the way, was not uneducated, He taught in the Temple when He was 12, if you will recall. (It always surprises me when people feel the need to insult/denigrate Jesus to make some trivial point, but then Mormons don’t worship Jesus so maybe insulting Him is no big deal to Mormons?) Some of the Apostles were educated as well, sure, some weren’t, but overall, the analogy is unraveling from the get-go.

For Mormons, the only evidence to be had is the “burning in your breast”. There’s not a shred of evidence to support what otherwise constitutes a preposterous story. There’s no evidence of an early (i.e. First Century) version of the Mormon church, so there was no church to “restore”. Restoration presumes that something once was there and has been brought back. There’s no “there” there.

The “Golden Plates” conveniently disappeared. Analysis of their weight based on their description has shown them not to be portable, yet Joseph claimed to run with them. They were written in a non-existent language. They were “translated” in secret using magic rocks held in the bottom of a hat. There isn’t a bit of evidence ~ archeological, biological (DNA or otherwise) or any kind of evidence ~ to establish that any part of the Book of Mormon story is true.

There is simply no comparison between the origins of Mormonism and the origins of Christianity.
 
teancum79 said:
You know I can almost see a similar conversation about 2k years ago. The Sanhedrin (sp) had the history the education and the evidence supporting their claims. a few uneducated people started causing problems with unbelievable stories that where contrary to what they wanted. None of that changed that FACT that Christ and his apostles where right. The same is true today no amount of “history” real or made up will alter the facts of Christ restoring his church through the prophet Joseph Smith. Some will accept this and many other will not, but just as in the days of Christ who believes or not will have no impact on the truth.
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so you equate God almighty coming to earth in person to deliver his message with miracles and even resurrection to show us his truth with joseph smith acting no different than david koresh. priceless example of mormon thinking
 
MelanieAnne said:
Chris, when God is married and has numerous wives, and we were all once spirit children of this God, called Heavenly Father, and his wife, Heavenly Mother, when you believe all that, the Mormon Garden of Eden story fits right in.
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Wait! I think you got to the heart of this. If I remember correctly, the LDS believe the spirit children born from the Father and his wives HAD to ALSO come to earth to be born as humans to get their bodies (they cant become gods without bodies). IF that is the case then the Fall being a good thing makes perfect sense because they say children did not come before the fall.

Paul or Majick, please fill us in here.
 
Catholic_Dude said:
Wait! I think you got to the heart of this. If I remember correctly, the LDS believe the spirit children born from the Father and his wives HAD to ALSO come to earth to be born as humans to get their bodies (they cant become gods without bodies). IF that is the case then the Fall being a good thing makes perfect sense because they say children did not come before the fall.

Paul or Majick, please fill us in here.
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Catholic Dude, I can affirm that Mormons believe that we are born on Earth in order to get a body. This is the same body that will be resurrected, but in a perfected form (i.e., I think bald guys get their hair back 😃 !) Even if someone is born and dies hours or days later, they’ve accomplished the most important thing, which is getting the body.

There are also those Mormon males who speculate that in order to become a God of another world that they will need to be crucified in that other world. I don’t believe that is doctrine, but I’ve heard it speculated about in various times and places.

The fundamental problem with Mormonism starts with their heretical belief about the nature of God. Mormons have essentially re-made God in the image of Man and conceive of God in human terms. This limited view pervades their theology and I believe many other heretical beliefs proceed from this one. For Mormons God has been made in the image of man, not vice-versa.
 
MelanieAnne said:
Catholic Dude, I can affirm that Mormons believe that we are born on Earth in order to get a body. This is the same body that will be resurrected, but in a perfected form (i.e., I think bald guys get their hair back 😃 !) Even if someone is born and dies hours or days later, they’ve accomplished the most important thing, which is getting the body.
There are also those Mormon males who speculate that in order to become a God of another world that they will need to be crucified in that other world. I don’t believe that is doctrine, but I’ve heard it speculated about in various times and places.
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Forget going bald, if Im resurrected in the LDS style I’m thinking about going for one of those Brigham Young beards:

The fundamental problem with Mormonism starts with their heretical belief about the nature of God. Mormons have essentially re-made God in the image of Man and conceive of God in human terms. This limited view pervades their theology and I believe many other heretical beliefs proceed from this one. For Mormons God has been made in the image of man, not vice-versa.
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This is true, along with all the other problems such as they dont believe God is “eternal” in the sense we understand eternal, instead God was once a man who progressed into Godhood.
 
MelanieAnne said:
There’s a huge difference Teancum. There’s evidence for Jesus Christ and His Apostles, their disciples, the Early Church Fathers, etc. ~ there’s literally mountains of evidence, preserved by scholars for hundreds of years. Jesus, by the way, was not uneducated, He taught in the Temple when He was 12, if you will recall. (It always surprises me when people feel the need to insult/denigrate Jesus to make some trivial point, but then Mormons don’t worship Jesus so maybe insulting Him is no big deal to Mormons?) Some of the Apostles were educated as well, sure, some weren’t, but overall, the analogy is unraveling from the get-go.

For Mormons, the only evidence to be had is the “burning in your breast”. There’s not a shred of evidence to support what otherwise constitutes a preposterous story. There’s no evidence of an early (i.e. First Century) version of the Mormon church, so there was no church to “restore”. Restoration presumes that something once was there and has been brought back. There’s no “there” there.

The “Golden Plates” conveniently disappeared. Analysis of their weight based on their description has shown them not to be portable, yet Joseph claimed to run with them. They were written in a non-existent language. They were “translated” in secret using magic rocks held in the bottom of a hat. There isn’t a bit of evidence ~ archeological, biological (DNA or otherwise) or any kind of evidence ~ to establish that any part of the Book of Mormon story is true.

There is simply no comparison between the origins of Mormonism and the origins of Christianity.
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You know I think I finally understand you. no matter how wrong you are you keep repeating the same false information in hopes that it will become true. Maybe in your mind enough people going on recored saying that the LDS church is wrong and that their is “no evidence” (something that has been shown to be a lie), but it just won’t work.

You can mock God and his servants till the cows come home, but the reality of Christ’s church remains unchanged by your inability to see what it is.
 
teancum79 said:
You know I think I finally understand you. no matter how wrong you are you keep repeating the same false information in hopes that it will become true. Maybe in your mind enough people going on recored saying that the LDS church is wrong and that their is “no evidence” (something that has been shown to be a lie), but it just won’t work.

You can mock God and his servants till the cows come home, but the reality of Christ’s church remains unchanged by your inability to see what it is.
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How ironic that you would post such a thing. Naturally when a case cannot be made with reason and evidence, the logical defense is to attack someone personally. And so very “Christian” a response too. :rolleyes:

When there are no special hand grips needed to get into Heaven, I trust you’ll look me up and tell me how sorry you are about having been wrong about so many things. 🙂
 
MelanieAnne said:
How ironic that you would post such a thing. Naturally when a case cannot be made with reason and evidence, the logical defense is to attack someone personally. And so very “Christian” a response too. :rolleyes:

When there are no special hand grips needed to get into Heaven, I trust you’ll look me up and tell me how sorry you are about having been wrong about so many things. 🙂
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Your lecturing me on being “Christian” in my posts. LOL thats great. I love this. You make a regular habit of insulting me and my faith and than try to call me on not being Christian enough for you.
 
teancum79 said:
Your lecturing me on being “Christian” in my posts. LOL thats great. I love this. You make a regular habit of insulting me and my faith and than try to call me on not being Christian enough for you.
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I don’t attack people. I do point out the absence of evidence or the lack of reasoned explanation. It’s unfortunate if you cannot discern the difference.

I’ll make it easier on you. I’ll put you on “ignore” and I’ll no longer respond to your posts. Have a nice life.
 
MelanieAnne said:
I don’t attack people. I do point out the absence of evidence or the lack of reasoned explanation. It’s unfortunate if you cannot discern the difference.

I’ll make it easier on you. I’ll put you on “ignore” and I’ll no longer respond to your posts. Have a nice life.
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mormons just hate it when you point out the fact that the Emperor(Joseph Smith) has no clothes. Come on MelanieAnne, don’t put him on ignore, this is getting good. He was putting up some kind of defense, but you got him on the ropes so bad that now his only response is “nyah,nyah I’m right and you’re wrong and I don’t care what you say or what the truth is or if the sky falls down, I’m going to believe this claptrap if it kills me, so there.” “It doesn’t HAVE to make sense, my daddy told me so and all truth comes out of Salt Lake City.”
 
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