Motu Proprio Norms for Florida

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otjm said:
Article 5 Section 4: Priests who use the Missal of Bl. John XXIII must be qualified to do so and not juridically impeded.

Nothing therein says that the priest is the sole determinant of his own qualifications.

Further, while Article 5 Section 1 speaks to teh public use of the Missal, Article 4 does not say “one who uses it publicly”; simply, “one who uses it”.
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For some reason though I don’t think the Holy Father had in mind that Bishops should be restricting priests from saying the mass because they aren’t fluent in it. To paraphrase what I said to the archbishop - there is no such restriction on anglophone priests who for the good of the faithful decide to say the Mass in Spanish, Vietnamese, et cetera.

Maybe we should write his Holiness regarding his intent.

Catholig
 
kleary said:
No- the parish may use the Extraordinary Form if they choose- even if they have only one Mass on that day- EG - Holy Thursday or Easter Vigil- use the EF instead of the ordinary.

To say that they cannot places the Ordinary Rite as superior. Using the EF is an option with equality to the Ordinary- any form can be used even if only one Mass is offered on one day.

Ken
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to me, that is simply not that clear. There is a presumption that the Missla of Paul 6th is the ordinary Missal, and given that the Missal of 1962 is the extrordinary Missal, it would seem that the ordinary form would be followed during the Triduum unless the parish was dedicated to the 1962 Missal. I really doubt that it will occur if the majority of a parish follows the current Missal, so the point may never be resolved in any event. I don’t think it is an issue of superior or inferior; it is an issue that if the ordinary is the standard of the parish and the extrodinary has one Mass on Sunday, then the ordinary form would be used.

And if that is the case, the Florida is within the MP. The bottom line is that unless there is someone willing to push the issue, it will not come up and not be resolved. I would suppose that technically a parishoner could appeal the issue to Rome; but unless they can show that the priest would back the parishoner’s claim, the parishoner is going to be saying that they are denied it, but have no one who would have said it had it not been denied by the bishop.
 
I’ve also been wanting to make an analogy to St. John Vianney, who couldn’t learn theology in Latin. Do you think he’d be allowed to say the Tridentine Mass now? Maybe surely he must have had some grasp of the language to say the Mass every Sunday - but I’m not sure if he could pass any written test. This document doesn’t even make clear what “evidence ability of the Latin Language” means - does that mean know the ordinary, know whatever word of the Gospel means, or give a homily in Latin? As a language book I have says (again to paraphrase) know what you need the language for. If the priest is trying to say the Mass in Latin it would make sense that he could say the Mass in Latin - it doesn’t mean he needs to know the language or how to conjugate every verb by heart. It means that he has to be able to pronounce the words, the general meaning of the prayers, and be able to identify the verb’s conjugation.

Catholig
 
Catholig said:
For some reason though I don’t think the Holy Father had in mind that Bishops should be restricting priests from saying the mass because they aren’t fluent in it. To paraphrase what I said to the archbishop - there is no such restriction on anglophone priests who for the good of the faithful decide to say the Mass in Spanish, Vietnamese, et cetera.

Maybe we should write his Holiness regarding his intent.

Catholig
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The intent appears clear on the face of the MP in Section 4.

I have yet to meet any priest who says Mass in Vietnamese who is not fluent in it. It is a tonal language, and the inability to speak tonally correctly would be a disaster. And every priest I have met who says Mass in Spanish has had some Spanish language classes. I have known priests who were not Latin scholars; but all of them had enough Latin to make a high school student at least take notice. Latin was required in college seminary, and was one way of determining who might not be ordained; don’t get a passing grade in Latin, do not pass go…

I think that a bishop would be well within his rights to require that a priest be able to do more than simply pronounce the words somewhat correctly.

But then, maybe I am wrong; it could be the first test case. I would guess that within 6 months to a year we might know, assuming someone takes it up with Rome.
 
Catholig said:
I’ve also been wanting to make an analogy to St. John Vianney, who couldn’t learn theology in Latin. Do you think he’d be allowed to say the Tridentine Mass now? Maybe surely he must have had some grasp of the language to say the Mass every Sunday - but I’m not sure if he could pass any written test. This document doesn’t even make clear what “evidence ability of the Latin Language” means - does that mean know the ordinary, know whatever word of the Gospel means, or give a homily in Latin? As a language book I have says (again to paraphrase) know what you need the language for. If the priest is trying to say the Mass in Latin it would make sense that he could say the Mass in Latin - it doesn’t mean he needs to know the language or how to conjugate every verb by heart. It means that he has to be able to pronounce the words, the general meaning of the prayers, and be able to identify the verb’s conjugation.

Catholig
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Then perhaps the rules have been relaxed since I was in the seminary. We had to get a passing grade in Latin, St John notwithstanding. But then, someone had figured out that we could study theology in English… I guess St John would have been safe, at a later date.
 
I do not have the privilege of going to a Tridentine Mass, but I know that it isn’t just the priest’s spoken texts that are in Latin in the altar missal, but the rubrics as well. A priest that isn’t familiar with the EFRR should know enough to get through the rubrics without having to pull out a Ecclesiastical Latin/English dictionary at the altar. I don’t think that they need to be fluent, though.

Priests offering a new Mass in another language (Spanish, Vietnamese, etc…) can do so with fewer complications because they have the ritual of the mass memorized and don’t need to translate the rubrics from the foreign language to their native tongue. If they are confused, they can simply go to their English Sacramentary to get clarification. However, with a priest who is unfamiliar with the complexities of the EFRR, it may be a challenge. I, personally, think the EFRR is beautiful, and I hope that priests try to learn it. However, if they are being petitioned for a Latin Mass and, for whatever reason, do not want to learn the EFRR, they may consider the Latin Novus Ordo Mass as an alternative option. Use incense, altar boys, no EMHC’s, and face ad orientem. Latin sacramentaries are not hard to find for the new Mass.

JMHO
 
If you are concerned about this issue then please consider contacting the Most Reverend John H. Ricard about the Norms he has issued. It is our right to respectfully disagree with our religious leaders on certain issues.

May God bless Bishop John H. Ricard and enlighten him to this issue. If you do not get a sufficient response from Bishop Ricard then consider contacting the Ecclesia Dei Commission for help. But, make certain you contact the Bishop first before contacting The Ecclesia Dei Commission. And include copies of the Bishop’s Norms and the correspondence between yourself and the Bishop.

Remember to keep your comments respectful and well thought out.

Mailing Address:

The Most Reverend John H. Ricard
Bishop of the Diocese of Pensacola-Tallahassee
11 North “B” Street
Pensacola, Florida 32501

E-mail Address of The Most Reverend John H. Ricard:
bishop@ptdiocese.org

Mailing address for the Ecclesia Dei Commision.
(Requires AirMail Postage.)

His Eminence Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos
President Commission Ecclesia Dei
Piazza del Sant’ Uffizio 11
00120 Vatican City, Italy, Europe
 
Here is an update for those of us who are in Florida, specifically the Diocese of Pensacola-Tallahassee:

This upcoming Sunday in my parish’s bulletin (the Co-Cathedral of St. Thomas More), an announcement will be going out about the possibility of having a Tridentine Latin Mass. If there is a good response, then our good monsignor and I will let Bishop Ricard know.

The good bishop and I have been in email correspondence, and he said that he would like to have a TLM done in the eastern part of the diocese, but that there are concerns about sustaining one because of our numbers on this side of the diocese, as well as finding a consistent priest to do the mass, etc. Still, he is definitely open to it, and if there is a significant number of people who want the TLM, then that is an encouraging first step.
 
mozier said:
Here is an update for those of us who are in Florida, specifically the Diocese of Pensacola-Tallahassee:

This upcoming Sunday in my parish’s bulletin (the Co-Cathedral of St. Thomas More), an announcement will be going out about the possibility of having a Tridentine Latin Mass. If there is a good response, then our good monsignor and I will let Bishop Ricard know.

The good bishop and I have been in email correspondence, and he said that he would like to have a TLM done in the eastern part of the diocese, but that there are concerns about sustaining one because of our numbers on this side of the diocese, as well as finding a consistent priest to do the mass, etc. Still, he is definitely open to it, and if there is a significant number of people who want the TLM, then that is an encouraging first step.
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