Mourning and Weeping In This Valley of Tears (Abortion Issue and Other Social Ills)

[3DOCTORS]

Does anyone else feel what I feel - such great, overwhelming sadness that, to give just a few examples:

• So many people in society don’t seem to want to be creative and proactive and brainstorm to find ways a mother and baby in a difficult pregnancy can be saved, rather than pitting one against the other? Of course it is difficult when an emergency situation is unfolding - but again, being proactive, brainstorming worst-case scenarios, couldn’t hurt and might help.
• Many are so eager to accuse pro-lifers of lacking in compassion, when in reality - I’ll speak for myself but surely there are others - we are anguished and heartbroken and torn to pieces inside, especially by the “hard cases” ?
• Politics and argument aren’t going to accomplish much but get people angry at each other, :slapfight: so we’d better turn to prayer - I’m not saying give up activism, but boy do we need prayer and plenty of it, because it appears Satan is pulling out all the stops in this spiritual battle? And he’s winning hearts to the expedient, the quick fix, the darkness which masquerades as light, the “cure” which kills.
• The Gospel of Life is being threatened severely by the Culture of Death and it’s all happening so fast we’ve hardly time to map out a strategy, and then we get screamed at for even posting a pro-life message on someplace like Facebook, which the recipient can delete if they don’t like it? They are trying to intimidate us into cowardice. Though we must choose our battlegrounds carefully and not waste ammo.

If any of this makes sense to you, this outpouring of my own heart, unite your heart and prayer intentions however you see fit - Rosary, St. Michael Prayer, Divine Mercy Chaplet, or just pouring out your own heart to the Lord and begging him to nudge all our hearts toward His Divine Light.

 

[littlechicken]

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Does anyone else feel what I feel - such great, overwhelming sadness that, to give just a few examples:

• So many people in society don’t seem to want to be creative and proactive and brainstorm to find ways a mother and baby in a difficult pregnancy can be saved, rather than pitting one against the other? Of course it is difficult when an emergency situation is unfolding - but again, being proactive, brainstorming worst-case scenarios, couldn’t hurt and might help.
• Many are so eager to accuse pro-lifers of lacking in compassion, when in reality - I’ll speak for myself but surely there are others - we are anguished and heartbroken and torn to pieces inside, especially by the “hard cases” ?
• Politics and argument aren’t going to accomplish much but get people angry at each other, :slapfight: so we’d better turn to prayer - I’m not saying give up activism, but boy do we need prayer and plenty of it, because it appears Satan is pulling out all the stops in this spiritual battle? And he’s winning hearts to the expedient, the quick fix, the darkness which masquerades as light, the “cure” which kills.
• The Gospel of Life is being threatened severely by the Culture of Death and it’s all happening so fast we’ve hardly time to map out a strategy, and then we get screamed at for even posting a pro-life message on someplace like Facebook, which the recipient can delete if they don’t like it? They are trying to intimidate us into cowardice. Though we must choose our battlegrounds carefully and not waste ammo.

If any of this makes sense to you, this outpouring of my own heart, unite your heart and prayer intentions however you see fit - Rosary, St. Michael Prayer, Divine Mercy Chaplet, or just pouring out your own heart to the Lord and begging him to nudge all our hearts toward His Divine Light.

They believe that they are the compassionate ones, protectors of the lives of people who made a simple mistake. They don’t view the fetus as a person with a soul, and as such they make the regrettable decision to murder, simply because it will make their lives “easier.”

They are angered by our pity, and reject our offers of help. They have been blinded by our Culture of Death. Satan must have been dancing in the streets since the sixties, and he has good reason to be. He is winning souls left and right. Truly regrettable.

 

[mountee]

They believe that they are the compassionate ones, protectors of the lives of people who made a simple mistake. They don’t view the fetus as a person with a soul, and as such they make the regrettable decision to murder, simply because it will make their lives “easier.”

They are angered by our pity, and reject our offers of help. They have been blinded by our Culture of Death. Satan must have been dancing in the streets since the sixties, and he has good reason to be. He is winning souls left and right. Truly regrettable.

Brilliant response:thumbsup:

 

[mountee]

Does anyone else feel what I feel - such great, overwhelming sadness that, to give just a few examples:

• So many people in society don’t seem to want to be creative and proactive and brainstorm to find ways a mother and baby in a difficult pregnancy can be saved, rather than pitting one against the other? Of course it is difficult when an emergency situation is unfolding - but again, being proactive, brainstorming worst-case scenarios, couldn’t hurt and might help.
• Many are so eager to accuse pro-lifers of lacking in compassion, when in reality - I’ll speak for myself but surely there are others - we are anguished and heartbroken and torn to pieces inside, especially by the “hard cases” ?
• Politics and argument aren’t going to accomplish much but get people angry at each other, :slapfight: so we’d better turn to prayer - I’m not saying give up activism, but boy do we need prayer and plenty of it, because it appears Satan is pulling out all the stops in this spiritual battle? And he’s winning hearts to the expedient, the quick fix, the darkness which masquerades as light, the “cure” which kills.
• The Gospel of Life is being threatened severely by the Culture of Death and it’s all happening so fast we’ve hardly time to map out a strategy, and then we get screamed at for even posting a pro-life message on someplace like Facebook, which the recipient can delete if they don’t like it? They are trying to intimidate us into cowardice. Though we must choose our battlegrounds carefully and not waste ammo.

If any of this makes sense to you, this outpouring of my own heart, unite your heart and prayer intentions however you see fit - Rosary, St. Michael Prayer, Divine Mercy Chaplet, or just pouring out your own heart to the Lord and begging him to nudge all our hearts toward His Divine Light.

I am completely united with you and will be praying.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Brilliant response:thumbsup:

Glad you liked it ^^

 

[GratefulFred]

You certainly speak for me. But what to do?

IMO, we need a healthy dose of PE.

You are correct in citing 2 Chronicles 7: Humble Prayer. For only God can change hearts. All of us need to pray feverently and consistently for an increase in Wisdom - right knowledge and right judgment.

Fortified with humble Wisdom, we then need Education. Ourselves first and then our families, relatives, friends, and society in general.

It seems to me that we do a disservice when we ignore the basics of a well lived life, and try to handle the abortion issue only at the very end of a long series of mistakes.

Years before people begin to engage in sex, we need to be taught

• that life is a gift from God.
• that every child deserves both a married mother and father.
• that sex is the highest form of communication between two people and it ought to be reserved for that special someone who has been successful at all other lower levels of communication because
• that from the moment of conception, the fertilized egg has ALL the DNA and chromosomes of a SEPARATE human being, neither the father nor the mother even if it is totally dependent on the mother for a period of time.
• that the mother should be dependent on the father.
• that actions have consequences. We are held accountable for our mistakes - e.g car accidents. We are not excused from the consequences of our actions even if they be mistakes.

It would take a textbook to express the above more cogently. Suffice to say, we need to re-teach the basics of living an honorable, responsible life, so we understand just how sex is to be engaged long before we are in position to act (name removed by moderator)rudently. We can and should re-teach these most basic values to adults as well.

It is about TRUE LOVE. Sex with whomever, whenever without accepting the consequences is indeed a FALSE LOVE.

Then we need to speak the truth in the spirit of love. See Ephesians 4: 11-32 for the idea.

Better educated people automatically make better personal decisions and better choices in the voting booth.

 

[PJH_74]

They believe that they are the compassionate ones, protectors of the lives of people who made a simple mistake. They don’t view the fetus as a person with a soul, and as such they make the regrettable decision to murder, simply because it will make their lives “easier.”

They are angered by our pity, and reject our offers of help. They have been blinded by our Culture of Death. Satan must have been dancing in the streets since the sixties, and he has good reason to be. He is winning souls left and right. Truly regrettable.

3DOCTORS - One of the best posts I’ve seen in a long time on the topic.

ProdglArchitect - I am at the core a pro-life person and along with my wife make our personal choices in a strongly pro-life direction. The impression I get from your response above run contrary to what I take as you support of 3DOCTORS’s anguish over the me vs you tone of the abortion debate.

Here’s the thing, many people seek abortion for lack of resources or fear. Any offer of help for people in this situation has to be more than slogans, graphic posters, pity, or preaching. Adoption might be the best option to counter abortion, but are we willing to genuine support and friendship through to the birth? Are we willing to financially support a person through the loss of work time and medical costs who honesty can’t afford pregnency? It’s easy to point blame at another person, but are we willing to get off our horse and walk closely with that person to save life? I’m willing to bet few people ever consider an abortion out of simple disregard for life or convenience; the most effective pro-life reponse has to compassionaltely understand and truly address what has brought a person to this drastic step.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

3DOCTORS - One of the best posts I’ve seen in a long time on the topic.

ProdglArchitect - I am at the core a pro-life person and along with my wife make our personal choices in a strongly pro-life direction. The impression I get from your response above run contrary to what I take as you support of 3DOCTORS’s anguish over the me vs you tone of the abortion debate.

Here’s the thing, many people seek abortion for lack of resources or fear. Any offer of help for people in this situation has to be more than slogans, graphic posters, pity, or preaching. Adoption might be the best option to counter abortion, but are we willing to genuine support and friendship through to the birth? Are we willing to financially support a person through the loss of work time and medical costs who honesty can’t afford pregnency? It’s easy to point blame at another person, but are we willing to get off our horse and walk closely with that person to save life? I’m willing to bet few people ever consider an abortion out of simple disregard for life or convenience; the most effective pro-life reponse has to compassionaltely understand and truly address what has brought a person to this drastic step.

I recognize that it is an anguishing decision for many of the people who do it, but hardship is not a valid excuse for taking a human life. I think we should be compassionate, and help those people out to our fullest extent, but it doesn’t make the decision of those who do go through with killing their child any less objectionable. I can support 3Doctor’s opinions, and feel similarly, while still calling out our culture of death for what it is.

Another note, my post wasn’t so much directed at the individual people who have abortions, but rather at the culture as a whole that celebrates the murder of children as a right, or as a quick fix to the “problem” of getting pregnant.

 

[St_Francis]

3DOCTORS - One of the best posts I’ve seen in a long time on the topic.

ProdglArchitect - I am at the core a pro-life person and along with my wife make our personal choices in a strongly pro-life direction. The impression I get from your response above run contrary to what I take as you support of 3DOCTORS’s anguish over the me vs you tone of the abortion debate.

Here’s the thing, many people seek abortion for lack of resources or fear. Any offer of help for people in this situation has to be more than slogans, graphic posters, pity, or preaching. Adoption might be the best option to counter abortion, but are we willing to genuine support and friendship through to the birth? Are we willing to financially support a person through the loss of work time and medical costs who honesty can’t afford pregnency? It’s easy to point blame at another person, but are we willing to get off our horse and walk closely with that person to save life? I’m willing to bet few people ever consider an abortion out of simple disregard for life or convenience; the most effective pro-life reponse has to compassionaltely understand and truly address what has brought a person to this drastic step.

I am always surprised by posts like yours, because I have known that there were people out there trying to help women in this situation since the mid-1970s. I don’t know when those organizations were started.

And the Church once had many resources to help pregnant women who found themselves in need.

But the previous poster is correct. I have long thought that teaching children from a young age that there is a baby involved and even showing some of the wonderful pictures of babies in the womb would do more to help the pro-life movement (and maybe already has!)

Because the key is ultimately to reconnect sexual activity and babies in people’s minds. The most effective way of avoiding pregnancy is abstinence, so that there are not as many pregnant women in need.

 

[Regular_Atheist]

Sometimes the extreme anti-abortion laws can cause problems. I don’t want to blame Catholics for this, though, but the woman was supposedly told that Ireland was “a Catholic country” which is why the foetus couldn’t be aborted. I’m not really sure where I stand on the abortion issue, really. I guess I’m more pro-life than anything, but I think it’s fine in certain situations (like when the woman’s life is in danger).

 

[PJH_74]

Another note, my post wasn’t so much directed at the individual people who have abortions, but rather at the culture as a whole that celebrates the murder of children as a right, or as a quick fix to the “problem” of getting pregnant.

This is why I was careful to say that this was my impression, not necessarily your intent. I respect your response about dealing with individuals compassionately.

I am always surprised by posts like yours, because I have known that there were people out there trying to help women in this situation since the mid-1970s. I don’t know when those organizations were started.

I didn’t mean to imply nobody did anything along these lines. I just wanted to say it was the most effective and not everyone who is pro-life seems to be prepared to fully embrace this approach as it is much more involved and can get dirty.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Sometimes the extreme anti-abortion laws can cause problems. I don’t want to blame Catholics for this, though, but the woman was supposedly told that Ireland was “a Catholic country” which is why the foetus couldn’t be aborted. I’m not really sure where I stand on the abortion issue, really. I guess I’m more pro-life than anything, but I think it’s fine in certain situations (like when the woman’s life is in danger).

I’m getting really tired of seeing that link. The woman had blood poisoning, an abortion wouldn’t have solved that.

I’ll just link you to this, I encourage you to listen to the Father’s words.

Human Life International Statement on the Death of Savita Halappanavar in Ireland

 

[3DOCTORS]

You certainly speak for me. But what to do?

IMO, we need a healthy dose of PE.

You are correct in citing 2 Chronicles 7: Humble Prayer. For only God can change hearts. All of us need to pray feverently and consistently for an increase in Wisdom - right knowledge and right judgment.

Fortified with humble Wisdom, we then need Education. Ourselves first and then our families, relatives, friends, and society in general.

It seems to me that we do a disservice when we ignore the basics of a well lived life, and try to handle the abortion issue only at the very end of a long series of mistakes.

Years before people begin to engage in sex, we need to be taught

• that life is a gift from God.
• that every child deserves both a married mother and father.
• that sex is the highest form of communication between two people and it ought to be reserved for that special someone who has been successful at all other lower levels of communication because
• that from the moment of conception, the fertilized egg has ALL the DNA and chromosomes of a SEPARATE human being, neither the father nor the mother even if it is totally dependent on the mother for a period of time.
• that the mother should be dependent on the father.
• that actions have consequences. We are held accountable for our mistakes - e.g car accidents. We are not excused from the consequences of our actions even if they be mistakes.

It would take a textbook to express the above more cogently. Suffice to say, we need to re-teach the basics of living an honorable, responsible life, so we understand just how sex is to be engaged long before we are in position to act (name removed by moderator)rudently. We can and should re-teach these most basic values to adults as well.

It is about TRUE LOVE. Sex with whomever, whenever without accepting the consequences is indeed a FALSE LOVE.

Then we need to speak the truth in the spirit of love. See Ephesians 4: 11-32 for the idea.

Better educated people automatically make better personal decisions and better choices in the voting booth.

Good suggestions - I’m not quite sure what you mean by “the mother should be dependent on the father” - do you mean the mother should be able to rely on the father to man up and accept his responsibilities, perhaps? If so, I’m on board with you there.

I posted an earlier thread about troubleshooting in pro-life ministry which may or may not be relevant to the current discussion but I just want to refer to it - we just have to do so much to help - and to teach - and to pray.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=708723

Today I was thinking of the Scripture in which Jesus points out that He has overcome the world, and that did give me some hope. But He needs us to do our part as well. Peace!

 

[yunat]

Many people aren’t influenced by a culture of death, but rather a question of choice.

If a woman doesn’t want to carry a foetus to term, then she should have the choice of receiving a medically safe means of aborting the foetus, as opposed to a dangerous back alley abortion.

A culture death doesn’t exist outside of the perceptions of pro-life groups.

Abortion isn’t murder, as murder is a very specific legal term that has no application in the debate concerning abortion. Calling abortion murder, is simply hijacking a legal definition and using it to further a cause with strong, emotional and provocative language.

I don’t love abortion, but it is a choice women should have the right to make…safely.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Many people aren’t influenced by a culture of death, but rather a question of choice.

If a woman doesn’t want to carry a foetus to term, then she should have the choice of receiving a medically safe means of aborting the foetus, as opposed to a dangerous back alley abortion.

A culture death doesn’t exist outside of the perceptions of pro-life groups.

Abortion isn’t murder, as murder is a very specific legal term that has no application in the debate concerning abortion. Calling abortion murder, is simply hijacking a legal definition and using it to further a cause with strong, emotional and provocative language.

I don’t love abortion, but it is a choice women should have the right to make…safely.

The fact that people think they have a right to choose to abort their child proves the point that many people in fact are influenced by the Culture of Death.

Yunat, I have a question. What if you (or (this is incorrect but anyway) the fetus that would become you) was aborted? Would you be here today on CAF?

 

[3DOCTORS]

Many people aren’t influenced by a culture of death, but rather a question of choice.

If a woman doesn’t want to carry a foetus to term, then she should have the choice of receiving a medically safe means of aborting the foetus, as opposed to a dangerous back alley abortion.

A culture death doesn’t exist outside of the perceptions of pro-life groups.

Abortion isn’t murder, as murder is a very specific legal term that has no application in the debate concerning abortion. Calling abortion murder, is simply hijacking a legal definition and using it to further a cause with strong, emotional and provocative language.

I don’t love abortion, but it is a choice women should have the right to make…safely.

First of all, “Choice” isn’t a choice in a vacuum - one is choosing something over something else. And some choices are good and some choices are not good. But that’s not what I started this thread for.

Can we please stick to the topic of the thread, which is not to debate the abortion issue, but to provide a place for those whom it troubles and causes heartsickness to? :bighanky: If you want to present the views above why not start your own thread on the subject? Thanks.

 

[GratefulFred]

Good suggestions - I’m not quite sure what you mean by “the mother should be dependent on the father” - do you mean the mother should be able to rely on the father to man up and accept his responsibilities, perhaps? If so, I’m on board with you there.

But He needs us to do our part as well. Peace!

Making new life is a MAN’s ISSUE.

Our society CANNOT get to the right answer by leaving out the role and responsibility men have. REAL MEN protect and provide for their woman and children. There is NO HONOR in leaving a pregnant woman to fend for herself. There is NO HONOR is convincing her to abort. It may take decades to change the law to impose a LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY on men, but real men should shun those who act dishonorably.

Our society CANNOT get to the right answer by focusing only on the crisis stage. Hence my first post.

But in a crisis, men should be held responsible. Men cause pregnancies. Even the Blesssed Virgin Mary did not get pregnant by herself, the Holy Spirit made her pregnant.

 

[GratefulFred]

Hi Yunat, WELCOME to the Forums. I honor your willingness to discuss issues on a CATHOLIC forum. All of us are here trying to gain a better understanding of what life is really all about and how we can know if we are leading a GOOD life.

Opposite the “Culture of Death” is the “Culture of Life.”

Science gives us PROOF that a fertilized egg has all the DNA and chromosomes of a separate human being. It grows from the moment of conception. In about 40 weeks it is capable of living outside the mother. But until then, that NEW LIFE is dependent on the mother. And I said above, the mother should be able to depend on the father.

The Culture of Death tells society that that new dependent life does not matter. It is OK to kill it.

The Culture of Life tells society that that new life DOES MATTER and we have a moral obligation to give it a chance to experience the entire life cycle, from womb to tomb.

 

[yunat]

The fact that people think they have a right to choose to abort their child proves the point that many people in fact are influenced by the Culture of Death.

Yunat, I have a question. What if you (or (this is incorrect but anyway) the fetus that would become you) was aborted? Would you be here today on CAF?

I wouldn’t exist and therefore, I wouldn’t know any different.