Moved: The brain is not the source of all thought and reason - the mind is.

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Faith1960 said:
None of which is even remotely possible without a functioning brain.
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Right. So why are you a Christian?
Either you believe that God cannot know, be aware, conscious of his own self or experiences or others
Or you believe that God is a material being with a big brain- Both these make you a non-believer.

Which is it? 🤷
 
Faith1960 said:
None of which is even remotely possible without a functioning brain.
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Faith,

You ponder much. I found this site that discusses Aquinas view of the Soul. The Soul has Intellect. The intellect has parts and this is discussed here. It compartmentalizes what we observe and is something to hang your hat on for discussion sake.

psyking.net/id46.htm

I believe when it comes to understanding God…and applying all this…there is pause…

I have heard Father Carapi, we all pray for him, say…God spoke once and said Jesus…

I don’t think that we can translate how we think, how we decide, how we imagine to God.

We imagine. I have done an exercise like this. Try it…Imagine something…anything…and as you do, perhaps it is a tree, a place…something anything and hold that image. Now as you hold that image…move it to the left of your imagined thought and recall something from the past…

Now imagine someone, something, whatever it is from the past and hold it to the right of the thought that you imagined without prejudice that you just imagined.

You can hold both those thougths, one on the right and one on the left…now for discussion imagine that the first imagined image on the left has something to do with the one on the right and then…move both to the past and like a slingshot move them both to the future and allow them to disappear into the future…that took some effort…

Now does God imagine only when asked to imagine?..does God recall only when asked to recall? Does God take thoughts from the past and move them to the future? Quite frankly I don’t know…but I suggest you don’t cripple your understanding of God by what our puny minds can do…🙂
 
CopticChristian said:
K,

Does God speak English, Latin, or is language what we are crippled with in describing the undescribable. Where did you get in the beginning was the thought???
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Coptic, what you are talking about- human languages, including even written language and gesture, are nothing other than common symbols for thought- without which for us humans, our thoughts would remain each our own and communication and sharing of the thought impossible. When you first “know” anything- what forms in your mind is an image of that thing known. When you think about your wife, if she’s not around you, your mind has this picture of her that represents her to you. When you say you don’t “know” something, it’s because you look in your mind and don’t “see” that thing, so you say you don’t “know it” or if you previously had knowledge of it and lost it, you say you don’t “remember it” or have no “memory” of it. This image is a thought- a product/child of your mind, it is your “word” about your wife, or whatever else your mind has knowledge of. Because you’re human, it’s an imperfect picture, it does not contain “ALL” that that thing is- your knowledge of your wife cannot be fully all that your wife is.

But not so with God. God saw you perfectly fully as you are right now and even before he made you- That’s why you are a thought of God, a product of his infinite intellect. Difference between you and God is that God can give being to his thoughts but you can’t- you can just see your thoughts in your mind, imperfect as they are, even your “thought” about yourself is very, very imperfect. Psychologists tell us we have a “shadow” that is part of ourselves that we don’t know and don’t like to know because it’s not pretty to look at. You exist right now, only because you are an idea in God’s mind that he chose to give being/existence to. God’s knowledge of him-self is also absolute and perfect- it contains ALL that God is perfectly- we call it the Divine image, The Divine Word, or God the Word, aka God the Son.

For us humans who are citizens of two worlds, we cannot simply transfer our thoughts into each other’s minds so that other humans can know what we mean like God can, or angels and saints- God can simply give you knowledge without speakng to you in a human language. So we create these symbols that are common to us that we call, language. So that when you say “my wife”, we all kow what you think, mean- that woman that you’re married to. When you say “love”, we know what it is that is happening inside you. Language is just created symbols for thought to enable communication, they are not (the languages) the thoughts themselves.
 
Marybeloved said:
Right. So why are you a Christian?
Either you believe that God cannot know, be aware, conscious of his own self or experiences or others
Or you believe that God is a material being with a big brain- Both these make you a non-believer.

Which is it? 🤷
Click to expand...
We’re not talking about God. God is…God. We’re talking about human beings, and for human beings to think, reason walk, talk or be aware of oneself, the human needs to have a funtioning brain. Are you arguing this point or not?
And if so, just how is it that you think you’re capable of coming up with an answer to these questions and type it out, if not for your funtioing brain?
 
Faith1960 said:
We’re not talking about God. God is…God. We’re talking about human beings, and for human beings to think, reason walk, talk or be aware of oneself, the human needs to have a funtioning brain. Are you arguing this point or not?
And if so, just how is it that you think you’re capable of coming up with an answer to these questions and type it out, if not for your funtioing brain?
Click to expand...
No- actually, we are talking about “mind”. I’ve given the definitions from the dictionaries, it’s the awareness, thinking, consciousness. If you think it’s the brain then you have to explain to us how others without brains still have this “mind”. And I know I can’t do those things you say without a brain- That’s not the point! The point is whether the brain simply enables my mind to act in this world or whether the brain itself IS the mind or the ORIGIN of the mind. I, as a christian cannot believe that the brain is either the mind or it’s origin. My brain is important and totally essential to me in this material world because that’s the nature God gave me, soul and body. I cannot be a ghost in this world- I’m a union of body and spirit. But that does not mean that the Brain is the origin of my capacity to “know”.
 
Marybeloved said:
No- actually, we are talking about “mind”. I’ve given the definitions from the dictionaries, it’s the awareness, thinking, consciousness. If you think it’s the brain then you have to explain to us how others without brains still have this “mind”.
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Who doesn’t have a brain and is still able to think? And please explain to me how it is that virtually every person who suffers severe brain damage has a decreased mental and physical ability as a result?
 
Marybeloved said:
**Coptic, what you are talking about- **human languages, including even written language and gesture, are nothing other than common symbols for thought- without which for us humans, our thoughts would remain each our own and communication and sharing of the thought impossible. When you first “know” anything- what forms in your mind is an image of that thing known. When you think about your wife, if she’s not around you, your mind has this picture of her that represents her to you. When you say you don’t “know” something, it’s because you look in your mind and don’t “see” that thing, so you say you don’t “know it” or if you previously had knowledge of it and lost it, you say you don’t “remember it” or have no “memory” of it. This image is a thought- a product/child of your mind, it is your “word” about your wife, or whatever else your mind has knowledge of. Because you’re human, it’s an imperfect picture, it does not contain “ALL” that that thing is- your knowledge of your wife cannot be fully all that your wife is.

But not so with God. God saw you perfectly fully as you are right now and even before he made you- That’s why you are a thought of God, a product of his infinite intellect. Difference between you and God is that God can give being to his thoughts but you can’t- you can just see your thoughts in your mind, imperfect as they are, even your “thought” about yourself is very, very imperfect. Psychologists tell us we have a “shadow” that is part of ourselves that we don’t know and don’t like to know because it’s not pretty to look at. You exist right now, only because you are an idea in God’s mind that he chose to give being/existence to. God’s knowledge of him-self is also absolute and perfect- it contains ALL that God is perfectly- we call it the Divine image, The Divine Word, or God the Word, aka God the Son.

For us humans who are citizens of two worlds, we cannot simply transfer our thoughts into each other’s minds so that other humans can know what we mean like God can, or angels and saints- God can simply give you knowledge without speakng to you in a human language. So we create these symbols that are common to us that we call, language. So that when you say “my wife”, we all kow what you think, mean- that woman that you’re married to. When you say “love”, we know what it is that is happening inside you. Language is just created symbols for thought to enable communication, they are not (the languages) the thoughts themselves.
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What I am talking about is exactly as you say. We think in pictures.👍
 
Marybeloved said:
No- actually, we are talking about “mind”. I’ve given the definitions from the dictionaries, it’s the awareness, thinking, consciousness. If you think it’s the brain then you have to explain to us how others without brains still have this “mind”. And I know I can’t do those things you say without a brain- That’s not the point! The point is whether the brain simply enables my mind to act in this world or whether the brain itself IS the mind or the ORIGIN of the mind. I, as a christian cannot believe that the brain is either the mind or it’s origin. My brain is important and totally essential to me in this material world because that’s the nature God gave me, soul and body. I cannot be a ghost in this world- I’m a union of body and spirit. But that does not mean that the Brain is the origin of my capacity to “know”.
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MaryB,

When you figure this out let me know. We can then meet in the nearest telephone booth with all the others that confirm your opinion on this subject.👍
 
CopticChristian said:
K,

Does God speak English, Latin, or is language what we are crippled with in describing the undescribable. Where did you get in the beginning was the thought???
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“In the Beginning was the Word”: the Greek is “logos”, which means, “reason; rationality; thought; word; Word”, etc. (BDAG)
 
Thank you, very much, Khalid, for your testimony of faith, and the suffering you underwent to come to Christ.

God created all creatures, but we are not like animals, we don’t think like animals…we have brains and they have brains, but ours reflects reason, intellect, morality…we are made in the image of God…and yes, I would say we have minds that synthesize our perceptions…

And we have conscious will to do something…
 
Khalid said:
“In the Beginning was the Word”: the Greek is “logos”, which means, “reason; rationality; thought; word; Word”, etc. (BDAG)
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Khalid,

Ok that is a translation from I believe Aramaic to Greek…and so you are assuming that the translation is the thing…I would beg to differ with you.🙂

These words are just an expression of what we as humans experience it isn’t the thing.

In the beginning was the…

How should we describe what we want to say…try this word…no try that one…well how about a word that means lots of different things and of course that word doesn’t really convey what we want to say but at least people will get the idea…OK lets use that one…guided by the Holy Spirit…
 
CopticChristian said:
Khalid,

Ok that is a translation from I believe Aramaic to Greek…and so you are assuming that the translation is the thing…I would beg to differ with you.🙂

These words are just an expression of what we as humans experience it isn’t the thing.

In the beginning was the…

How should we describe what we want to say…try this word…no try that one…well how about a word that means lots of different things and of course that word doesn’t really convey what we want to say but at least people will get the idea…OK lets use that one…guided by the Holy Spirit…
Click to expand...
The Church has always taught that Our Lord chose the specific human descriptors “word” “image” and “Son” “begotten” to explain to us humans through our understanding of these terms in human life, just what manner of relations the second person of the Trinity has with God the Father and within the Blessed Trinity. These are not “supernatural terms”, they are very human words of human language about human relations and manner being, that are meant to reveal to us from our own level just who God is within himself. The “word” means what this word “word” usually means in human-speak- not a meaning that is not usually applied to it. Ditto “image”, “Son” and “begotten”- They were deliberately chosen.

“Word” usually means in the most basic form, a symbol for an inner thought- the symbol is usually a sound, a written symbol, or a gesture. The deeper meaning or the real “word” symbolized by these sounds, writings and gestures, is, as St. Augustine tells us, the inner thought. He also explains that the other term for him “image” of the Father tells us that this word is the inner thought which is at the same time the unique image/likeness of the Father. He says further that the term “Son” tells us that this person shares the nature of the Father like a human father gives his nature to another, forming him as his son. Taking them all together, we see that the Son is God’s inner, living, perfect, and con-substantial word- which is an image by intellection- a thought. But not just any thought but the one perfect divine thought by which all (which is God) is known. His incarnation as perfect revelation further amplifies this, because this word has made himself known to humans so that we humans now “know” God by looking at, listening to, obeying, the Word in human form.
 
Marybeloved said:
The Church has always taught that Our Lord chose the specific human descriptors “word” “image” and “Son” “begotten” to **explain **to us humans through our **understanding **of these terms in human life, just what manner of relations the second person of the Trinity has with God the Father and within the Blessed Trinity. These are not “supernatural terms”, they are very human words of human language about human relations and manner being, that are meant to **reveal to us **from our own level just who God is within himself. The “word” means what this word “word” usually means in human-speak- not a meaning that is not usually applied to it. Ditto “image”, “Son” and “begotten”- They were deliberately chosen.

“Word” usually means in the most basic form, a symbol for an inner thought- the symbol is usually a sound, a written symbol, or a gesture. The deeper meaning or the real “word” symbolized by these sounds, writings and gestures, is, as St. Augustine tells us, the inner thought. He also **explains **that the other term for him “image” of the Father tells us that this word is the inner thought which is at the same time the unique image/likeness of the Father. He says further that the term “Son” tells us that this person shares the nature of the Father like a human father gives his nature to another, forming him as his son. Taking them all together, we see that the Son is God’s inner, living, perfect, and con-substantial word- which is an image by intellection- a thought. But not just any thought but the one perfect divine thought by which all (which is God) is known. His incarnation as perfect revelation further amplifies this, because this word has made himself known to humans so that we humans now “know” God by looking at, listening to, obeying, the Word in human form.
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MaryB,

What is taught, understood by way of explanation revelation should be considered in light of usual meanings and explanations. I cannot say that I understand the Trinity from anything you say. I can say that no words that I am aware of caused the scales to fall from Pauls eyes as things were revealed to him. The entire notion of trying to understand a mystery and relate that to belief gives me a charley horse between the ears. There can be no agreement, no consensus, only opinion. You have an opinion. Bless you in your endeavor to understand and explain revelation as understood.🙂
 
CopticChristian said:
MaryB,

What is taught, understood by way of explanation revelation should be considered in light of usual meanings and explanations. I cannot say that I understand the Trinity from anything you say. I can say that no words that I am aware of caused the scales to fall from Pauls eyes as things were revealed to him. The entire notion of trying to understand a mystery and relate that to belief gives me a charley horse between the ears. There can be no agreement, no consensus, only opinion. You have an opinion. Bless you in your endeavor to understand and explain revelation as understood.🙂
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But I’m not discussing Trinity. I’m discussing mind and thought per the topi and the fact that they transcend the brain since neither God or angels have a body or a brain. I don’t know why you think I’m trying to help you with the Trinity I responded to what you said about word and thought.
🙂
 
CopticChristian said:
Khalid,

Ok that is a translation from I believe Aramaic to Greek…and so you are assuming that the translation is the thing…I would beg to differ with you.🙂

These words are just an expression of what we as humans experience it isn’t the thing.

In the beginning was the…

How should we describe what we want to say…try this word…no try that one…well how about a word that means lots of different things and of course that word doesn’t really convey what we want to say but at least people will get the idea…OK lets use that one…guided by the Holy Spirit…
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Those are John’s words from John’s gospel - not Jesus’ words, but he is inspired by God to speak them. John, Luke, and Mark were originally written in Greek; only Matthew was laid down in Aramaic.

Simply, without that one verse, our entire religion - bottom to top - falls apart. Our entire Christology, our knowledge of God (i.e. Trinity), our soteriology - all are nullified if “logos” is not the correct word.
 
Marybeloved said:
But I’m not discussing Trinity. I’m discussing mind and thought per the topi and the fact that they transcend the brain since neither God or angels have a body or a brain. I don’t know why you think I’m trying to help you with the Trinity I responded to what you said about word and thought.
🙂
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Okay, now I have to ask…what does God or the Angels’ lack of brains have to do with human beings, mind, and brain?
 
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