Moves to secede?

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Now you’ve gone and done it…
Admitted a Lapsed Catholic to your circle.

Is there such a thing, I wonder, as a lapsed Catholic?

I will add that I look back upon my Catholicism with both pride and horror,
in approximately equal measures. I accept that most people mean well.
I accept the Golden Rule.

In any event, I came here to comment on the recent question : Are there any states considering secession from the US?..since there were so many Nopes and Nos and "it’s illegal"s.

-Wrong!

Many states, including New England states and others have looked [historically] and quite a few are looking at it today, including my own home state of Vermont, which has generated quite a movement…google: Most Likely to Secede.

2LT Dennis Morrisseau USArmy [armor - Vietnam era] retired
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802 645 9727
pob 177, W Pawlet, VT 05775
FireCongress.org
Lieutenant Morrisseau’s Rebellion
 
Gosh, PNewton - better to live with tyranny than die for freedom? I thought dying for freedom and independence was the whole point of the revolutionary war against England? By the way, happy Independence Day. 👍
I did not say “die for freedom.” Those are your words. Today, a war for independence against the Federal Government would accomplish death, not freedom. No war should be fought with a virtual zero chance of success. That is why secession by force is not an option at this time, and probably never. Such a struggle can not compare with the Revolutionary War, or other such conflicts for freedom.
 
I did not say “die for freedom.” Those are your words. Today, a war for independence against the Federal Government would accomplish death, not freedom. No war should be fought with a virtual zero chance of success. That is why secession by force is not an option at this time, and probably never. Such a struggle can not compare with the Revolutionary War, or other such conflicts for freedom.
If at some point in the future the central government is too weak to hold it together either militarily or by popular decree. (If a critical mass of the citizens/military lose faith/trust in our Government.) Reasonably peaceful secession will not only succeed, it could become necessary. It could be inevitible.

Do not underestimate how quickly things can change. Global advantages and disadvantages tend to increase and decrease geometrically. Our current path is perilous.
 
Happy 4th of July. Such a fitting topic on the anniversary of our secession from the British empire. Let me weigh in with words from Honest Abe:

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better.

This is a most valuable–a most sacred right–a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it.

Any portion of such people that can, may revolutionize, and make their own, of so much of the territory as they inhabit."
~ Abraham Lincoln to Congress, January 12, 1848
(Link to his Speech regarding Mexican War)
 
From our Declaration of Independence:

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
 
No, it’s illegal, and the military would likely put it down within days if not hours. And given the monstrosities like the Louisiana literacy test, I’m glad we have a strong federal government.
It’s not illegal, the right to do so is clearly set out in The Declaration of Independence. Given the TYRANNICAL nature of the federal government maybe it wouldn’t be such a bad idea.
 
I did not say “die for freedom.” Those are your words. Today, a war for independence against the Federal Government would accomplish death, not freedom. No war should be fought with a virtual zero chance of success. That is why secession by force is not an option at this time, and probably never. Such a struggle can not compare with the Revolutionary War, or other such conflicts for freedom.
I know “freedom” was my insertion there, PNewton, but many a fight for freedom had next to no chance of success. Even in a war that has a good chance of success, people are going to die - lots of people. If a federal government is willing to butcher otherwise innocent civilians just because they want to secede (and oftentimes for good reason), it really sends a message about the tyranny of such a government.
 
From our Declaration of Independence:

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
Thank you for that quote reep, I was simply going to say it is in our constitution to stop our government when ever we choose , here you have gone an proved it, But what does our government do when we call them out ? they pretty much declare bupkiss to this fact written in our constitution and pretty much suggest that it would take congressional approval to do such a thing. or we have fellow citizens who would say to secede and declare the government to be destructive that those people are just sore losers over an election and they need to grow up.

Then the debate starts on well what then is the definition of the government becoming destructive, evidently the line is with hitler and his regime, as long as the government does not go down that road, everything must be peachy keen right ?

seems to me if there is a fraction of the population in a country that is furious with their government then it is time for a change, and guess what, Egypt just made a change, an then the debate goes, well that is Egypt, we are doing just fine and we have the right to just vote out whom ever we don’t like come next election, yet here is a political figure in Egypt who was voted in, by a narrow margin, and those who didn’t like him, simply let all hell break loose, an now they have new president, for better or worse they got something different.

The difference, Egypt has the backing of the military, citizens in America do not have the support of their military to protect them from their government at all. Not one General in the US Military is speaking out against anything, and why ? They don’t want to lose that fat cushy pension and retirement plan , not to mention all that wonderful power they have.

But hey as long as we keep the comforts we have, and the government doesn’t take those comforts away from us, and as long as we are allowed to keep on voting ( because voting really is the answer ) then everything will be just fine. And we know voting works because look around, gay marriage is finally going through, we have finally have a national health care plan ,the IRS makes sure our government gets the money they need, we have the TSA, DHS, CIA, FBI, NSA, Secret Service, ATF, DEA , the new Utah Data Base center, and a overtly covert secret military base in Nevada, and if those pesky republicans would have just agreed with Obama for tighter laws on gun control , if not just flat out abolishing the 2nd amendment then our country would be totally free of crime, but at least those agencies and that base in Nevada are keeping us safe . We have life term positions on judicial seats ( I think ) on supreme courts, so I mean how awesome is that ,we don’t have to be bothered with voting in a judge on our own, we just let our elected officials do the thinking for us so we can keep on with our lives. And to think we have all these wonderful things from just two political parties ! wow ! Two political parties gave us all these wonderful things and there is more to come ! Can’t wait !

Or I can always waste my vote on a third party candidate I forgot about that option,

The foundation that was laid out for us was a solid foundation, a check and balance system, three branches of government so not one in particular has total control, but when two parties are the major powers in a country, and occupy all three branches, are we really to believe they are not working together to maintain control and power over a free people ?

Seceding can work, Texas is large enough to accomplish it, IF they had the backing of local law enforcement, militias and what ever military bases they have, with out that they don’t stand a chance, on top of that when there are talks from political figures in Texas of seceding surf the net a little and find out what military bases in the country are put on some kind of alert status just in case. It would not be an all out war on Texas, there would be tons of sanctions first, a no fly zone over Texas, and then the political bantering and filibustering would begin, negotiations to keep the status kumbaya going.

Time is not on our political powers side, it is just a matter of time until someone has the courage to draw a line in the sand and say enough, an to point exactly to this quote above, to hold strong to what the Constitution and Bill of Rights stand for, and to stop letting the two party system twist the meanings to keep them in power.

Or

the Zombie Apocalypse hits sooner and we don’t have to worry about such a thing ever happening.
 
I declare, with complete confidence, that attempted secession of any political entity from the US will never happen again, thanks to the internets.

in the US, the internets is like a steam dump valve. it lets people rant, make fine arguments about We The People; grouse about obama, clinton, bush, abortion, invading gardeners from mexico; speculate on what someone else should or could do, but never have to actually do anything. Political “activism” without leaving the comfort of the house, paying into the fund, facing police dogs, fire hoses, riot batons, rubber bullets. and if they do leave the house to role play in the “54th Unorganized Michigan Militia of Free Peoples (“PickupTruckBorne!”)”, that’s all they’ll ever do, role play, until its time to come home to dinner. anger management for wannabe revolutionaries.

real revolutionaries would have stopped talking the talk and picked up a rifle or a brick long ago. our internet warriors will never do this.

the US doesn’t need Texas vs. White, or the Civil War, or the army to prevent a “revolution”, all it has to do is make sure that twitter, bookface and the rest of the social media stay online.
 
I declare, with complete confidence, that attempted secession of any political entity from the US will never happen again, thanks to the internets.

in the US, the internets is like a steam dump valve. it lets people rant, make fine arguments about We The People; grouse about obama, clinton, bush, abortion, invading gardeners from mexico; speculate on what someone else should or could do, but never have to actually do anything. Political “activism” without leaving the comfort of the house, paying into the fund, facing police dogs, fire hoses, riot batons, rubber bullets. and if they do leave the house to role play in the “54th Unorganized Michigan Militia of Free Peoples (“PickupTruckBorne!”)”, that’s all they’ll ever do, role play, until its time to come home to dinner. anger management for wannabe revolutionaries.

real revolutionaries would have stopped talking the talk and picked up a rifle or a brick long ago. our internet warriors will never do this.

the US doesn’t need Texas vs. White, or the Civil War, or the army to prevent a “revolution”, all it has to do is make sure that twitter, bookface and the rest of the social media stay online.
I think the internet is more of a fuse… and a buffer… maybe a long fuse… but the real critical piece is ‘critical mass’… that is more difficult to acheive in the US of A because we have a relatively higher quality of life (creature comforts… i.e. risk…) than most embattled countries (those experiencing revolts, general strikes, riots, coups… etc…)

It’s not a question of technology or courage but more of a question need or desire…

There is a point where critical mass is unstoppable… look at the sixties… that’s where civil rights (MLK), peace (abandonoing Vietnam), femininsm (The Pill, Abortion) and all kinds of social ills (anti-establishmentarianism, extreme unconformity) came from… the will (albeit misguided… or hijacked) of the people prevails due to critical mass. We see it today all around us… We complain and don’t like it but… the only proven solution is to win back the hearts, minds and souls of the people and regain the critical mass we need for our causes… for the sake of His sorrowful passion… Amen…
 
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