MOVIES: "Doubt" (contains spoilers)

  • Thread starter Thread starter debraran
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Perhaps this type of suspicion back in the '50s isn’t as far-fetched as you think. I can’t help but think that the sisters in the Catholic schools where abuse was taking place had to have some kind of inkling that something was going on (it turns out that there were TWO molesters in my childhood parish at the same time in the late 50s, early 60s!) It doesn’t in any way seem strange to me that suspicions would have occasionally been raised.
I watched this on DVD yesterday, and thought it was outstanding, (with the exception of the liturgy, which was not done correctly. THAT was irritating. A *sermon *at the beginning of Mass? Crossing oneself after the sermon? I thought they had a liturgical advisor, so maybe I’m the one missing something, though.)

The issue of whether or not the Sister A. would have suspected sexual abuse without the context of the abuse scandals is not such a difficult problem. First, Sister A. prides herself on digging deep to determine the true motives in the psyche and on being an excellent judge of character. Second, she has experienced sexual abuse in a parish before, and third, she is much more sophisticated about sexual behavior than the the average nun, because she’s been married before. I did not think her strong intuition about the priest lacked believability.

What’s so fantastic about this film is that it plays out for us the experience of having trustworthy inner knowledge that you must act on, but juxtaposes that intution with an uncertainty that can never be overcome. It is also frames the problem from a distinctly female perspective, with the inherent limitations of hierarchy and sex, which is fascinating. Sister A is limited in her power by her sex, but is willing to work within those boundaries to bring about justice, (like the cat, that serves as an analogy for how she uses her power).

The movie leads us to believe it is more probable than not there was an improper relationship, or at least the temptation of an improper relationship, but like Sister A., when the problem is removed, there is still deep uncertainty and doubt. A Catholic school is the perfect setting for a story like this, because our faith can be like this at times. We can feel truly certain and have trust in our perceptions of reality, but never have absolute confirmation.

I also thought the performance by Donald’s mother was amazing. It’s easy to not understand her, but if you keep your mind open to her life experience, she has so much to teach us. She is a woman who must survive. She loves her child as he is, and wants him to survive. In order to do that, she’s willing to see things in shades of gray, instead of black and white. Is her attitude rationalization, denial, or is she choosing to see the problem in a way that only a person like her, with severe restrictions of personal power because of her race, class, sex, and marital status could possibly see the problem? Or is it all three? If you are in a metaphorical social prison, and you believe your son is predisposed to homosexuality anyway, does a relationship like this still represent pure evil, or are you willing to accept its benefits? It’s a troubling, challenging, fascinating character depiction.

If you see this on DVD, watch it twice, because there are things that are important but easy to miss. In the very beginning of the movie the priest grabs a boy’s hand and he pulls away. Sister A. sees it from a window two stories above. We hear the dialouge, and know that he pulled his hand away because Father accused him of having dirty hands. Sister A. doesn’t hear the dialouge, but she reacts inutitively to the boy’s emotional reaction to the priest. At the end of the movie, Sister A. tells the priest her suspicion of him began with that incident. We know what happened, and what was said, but even so, does it really exonerate the priest? It might, but not necessarily, especially when you think about the symbolic meaning of “dirty hands”. Is it possible the boy sensed the priest had an improper interest in him and felt exposed or humiliated not by his literal dirty hands, but by his awareness on a semi-conscious level of the priest’s interest?

In the middle of the movie, there is also the tea scene. If you watch this on DVD, pay attention to the tea scene. The whole conversation about tea in that scene is double entendre. It was very impressive. I love Sister A.'s response to whether she wants tea, “no, I’ve already had mine”. We find out later in the movie she was married before, which is why it’s easy to miss the subtelty of that scene the first time you see this movie.
 
Brillant acting and plot.
At the beginning of the film, Father Flynn gives a beautiful sermon not just about doubt but also feeling alone. This sermon could have been preached in any Catholic church at any time and nobody would be suspicious of it.
Sister Aloysius questioned her sisters about it focusing on the issue of whether Father Flynn was in doubt. She was way off base at the beginning, exaggerated in her suspicions and prejudiced against Father Flynn.
 
It was a little far fetched that the two nuns in the story drew such a conclusion they did after hearing the little boy was in the rectory with the Father. The story takes place prior to the sex scandals becoming public
I find these kinds of remarks baffling. I’ve heard all my life about sex scandals in Catholic churches. Admittedly this was anti-Catholic propaganda, but it turned out to have a basis in truth. Since clearly this stuff was going on, it seems unlikely that a nun involved in Catholic education would be unaware of it, even if many ordinary laity dismissed the stories as a bunch of lies by Protestants.

Edwin
 
*I know this has been out for a while…as I rented it last year. I watched the last hour of it tonight on cable, and still can’t figure out what to believe.

I remember seeing a thread on this, but did a search and can’t locate it…I was hoping that some of you who have seen this film, that we could discuss it.

Do you believe that the priest had done anything wrong with one of the students? Why do you feel that the blond boy who pulled away from him in the schoolyard, did so? He also had a small smile on his face, at the end of the movie, as he watched Fr Flynn saying goodbye to the parishioners, as he had resigned. (at the nun’s urging)

I had forgotten about some of the details of the conversation between Meryl Streep’s character and ‘‘Father Flynn.’’ I was wondering if what he meant by his comment ‘‘sister, there are things you wouldn’t believe or understand.’’ Almost implying that he had done something, but I wasn’t sure if he was just saying that she would never believe anything he’d say.

So…what were your thoughts about this movie? *
 
I never saw it… I tend to be suspicious when Hollywood comes out with their version of the Church 😃

Was it worth watching though?

And happy new year whatevergirl:D!
 
I watched this movie a while ago on a Sunday night with my mom. I thought for a little that he might have done something, but I kind of felt like he didn’t. The movie kind of supported both theories. Like, there was things in the movie that looked like he might have done something, and things look like he probably didn’t do something. It was rather confusing and I kept thinking about it, but then got annoyed and stopped. I might watch it over again because it was a good movie, but it is thought-provoking.
 
I don’t think he did it. The things she wouldn’t understand I took to mean Priestly things… things the boy may have told him in confidence that he didn’t want to repeat. I thought she was a nut… that she didn’t like him because he represented the new way / change and she hated that. I also didn’t like the way she lied, claiming she talked to someone at the other school when she hadn’t. I think he left the school without making a big fuss over it because he knew the school needed her… she was willing to do all the hard, daily work … really run the place and for the good of the students he was willing to just bow out.

At the end when she was on the bench crying - saying she lost her faith I think that was because she went outside the will of God… by going after a good man and manipulating things the way she had. She had such distain for Priests in general… I think the sin of pride - and lying had separated her from God and she knew that.

I loved this movie and thought it protrayed the Church in a very fair manner.
 
i think he did it. he wouldnt have resigned if he didnt. in my opinion, it was a good movie. out of all the catholic - based movies made from hollywood, it was the best.
 
I don’t think he did it. The things she wouldn’t understand I took to mean Priestly things… things the boy may have told him in confidence that he didn’t want to repeat. I thought she was a nut… that she didn’t like him because he represented the new way / change and she hated that. I also didn’t like the way she lied, claiming she talked to someone at the other school when she hadn’t. I think he left the school without making a big fuss over it because he knew the school needed her… she was willing to do all the hard, daily work … really run the place and for the good of the students he was willing to just bow out.

At the end when she was on the bench crying - saying she lost her faith I think that was because she went outside the will of God… by going after a good man and manipulating things the way she had. She had such distain for Priests in general… I think the sin of pride - and lying had separated her from God and she knew that.

I loved this movie and thought it protrayed the Church in a very fair manner.
*Wow, this is a great summation…I am thinking you’re right. I forgot that she lied…There were a lot of innuendos throughout showing that she didn’t like ‘‘change’’ and where the world was heading…ie: the small transistor radio that she was using…

Thx for your comment.

As an aside – I really like the homily Fr Flynn gave regarding gossip. It’s a good visual example to pass onto others.*
 
I never saw it… I tend to be suspicious when Hollywood comes out with their version of the Church 😃

Was it worth watching though?

And happy new year whatevergirl:D!
Yes, it is worth watching, I highly recommend it. I think you have to watch it a few times to catch all the hidden meanings, and subtleties. Happy new year to you also! 🙂
 
Up until the last 5-10 minutes I thought the film was brilliant, borderline masterpiece. Unfortunately the ending just didn’t do it for me. I guess it’s still worth seeing though.
 
*I seem to recall that this movie (which I believe was originally a stage play?) was inspired by an actual case but was not intended to *express the playwright’s opinions about a particular case. As such, there is no right or wrong answer as to whether or not this particular priest was guilty of that which the mother superior thought him to be guilty. That particular factoid was deliberately left undefined.

Instead, the movie is more an exploration of the problems with trying to prove something like this. We the viewers were sort of put in the position of a jury who has to decide the legal guilt or innocence of a person based on very limited evidence. In other words, this is like real life where things do not have the crystal clarity that is so common in television crime dramas.

When someone is guilty of molestation it is likely that there will be no better evidence supplied than that given in this movie. In the case where someone is innocent of the crime it is just as likely that they will have engaged in some of the suspicious behaviors that the priest in the movie exhibits.

I tended to think the priest was guilty but after having engaged in several years worth of online discussions/debates about what was really the truth in the x-files I have come to believe that making de facto conclusions about a piece of fiction, (when the author has deliberately refrained from doing so), is an exercise in futility.
 
The screenwriter was describing a situation in a school he attended. He used his original elementary school (St Anthony’s in the Bronx) as a backdrop for the movie. My oldest sister spoke with him and he told her there was an occurance at the school he attended after he left St Anthony’s. However, the story’s ficticious with non-fictional connotations. Does that make sensce?!?
 
I heard it mentioned on the forums here and did some further investigating and wanted to know what others thought?
 
I haven’t seen it nor do I want to see it. Too much Catholic bashing. I’m not keen on what comes out of Hollywood anymore.
 
I heard it mentioned on the forums here and did some further investigating and wanted to know what others thought?
It made me aware of the way it is in society these days since the 1960’s and the wide spread of morale relativity. It seems everyone is suspect. People don’t know how to discern right from wrong anymore. They judge everyone as not believing in sin.
I remember one priest saying he was spit upon in an airport simply because of his collar.
Peace, Carlan
 
I haven’t seen it nor do I want to see it. Too much Catholic bashing. I’m not keen on what comes out of Hollywood anymore.
Actually, it is not a “Catholic bashing” movie at all. (I tire of those types of movies, too.) It’s an excellent, semi-allegorical look at the nature of doubt and belief. It’s deeper than your typical Hollywood fare–it actually makes you think. I would highly recommend it; it’s worth seeing more than once.
 
Father Brendan Flynn: A woman was gossiping with her friend about a man whom they hardly knew - I know none of you have ever done this. That night, she had a dream: a great hand appeared over her and pointed down on her. She was immediately seized with an overwhelming sense of guilt.

The next day she went to confession. She got the old parish priest, Father O’ Rourke, and she told him the whole thing. ‘Is gossiping a sin?’ she asked the old man. ‘Was that God All Mighty’s hand pointing down at me? Should I ask for your absolution? Father, have I done something wrong?’

‘Yes,’ Father O’ Rourke answered her. ‘Yes, you ignorant, badly-brought-up female. You have blamed false witness on your neighbor. You played fast and loose with his reputation, and you should be heartily ashamed.’

So, the woman said she was sorry, and asked for forgiveness. ‘Not so fast,’ says O’ Rourke. ‘I want you to go home, take a pillow upon your roof, cut it open with a knife, and return here to me.’

So, the woman went home: took a pillow off her bed, a knife from the drawer, went up the fire escape to her roof, and stabbed the pillow. Then she went back to the old parish priest as instructed. ‘Did you gut the pillow with a knife?’ he says. ‘Yes, Father.’ ‘And what were the results?’

‘Feathers,’ she said. ‘Feathers?’ he repeated. ‘Feathers; everywhere, Father.’

‘Now I want you to go back and gather up every last feather that flew out onto the wind,’

‘Well,’ she said, ‘it can’t be done. I don’t know where they went. The wind took them all over.’

‘And that,’ said Father O’ Rourke, ‘is gossip!’
from Doubt, the movie

I wouldn’t say it was “Catholic bashing.” Highly nuanced, will leave you thinking for a few days. I thought it was excellent, some great protrayals, can’t go wrong with Meryl. A clip here:

imdb.com/video/imdb/vi580518681/

dj
 
I agree that this is an excellent movie that really makes you think. It is fair in its treatment of the church, and fair in its portrayal of sexual abuse within the church without glossing over the truly terrible nature of it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top