Moving beyond Dawkins etc.

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ASimon

Actually, it’s interesting you mention Dawkins, since for all his supposed demagoguery, he’s quite happy to admit that he participates in the ritualistic trappings of religion (saying grace, for example) when polite decorum demands it. It doesn’t mean anything to him - but he goes along as a matter of simple courtesy.

“It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, “mad cow” disease, and many others, but I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world’s great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate.” Richard Dawkins

Is that “simple courtesy”? 😃

**Sam Harris also promotes something like a similar idea - just that there are real battles to fight in the world, but that organizing a standing atheist army to attack every trivial piece of stupidity that religion proffers is, at best, a waste of time. **

“It is difficult to imagine a set of beliefs more suggestive of mental illness than those that lie at the heart of many of our religious traditions.”

More “waste of time”? 😃
 
My position is stronger because it is based upon fewer assumptions that can be put down to wishful thinking…
Your basic assumption can be put down to wishful thinking because you have acknowledged that you used to find God an obstacle to the fulfilment of your desires.
 
Sair

My position is stronger because it is based upon fewer assumptions that can be put down to wishful thinking…

Since there is no proof that God does not exist, it must be put down as a wishful assumption that he does not! 😃

 
Your basic assumption can be put down to wishful thinking because you have acknowledged that you used to find God an obstacle to the fulfilment of your desires.
Your deadly concision is most admirable. I meant to respond to this earlier, but I’m glad you got to it first.
 
Hey Mudgely, your anti-Catholic propaganda is showing its slip again. :rolleyes:
.
Yet world population has grown at a greater rate. Tell us what the attendance rates are in Catholic countries like spain, Italy, France, brazil, mexicao, Belgium are John. You anti truth campaign is showing its vpl John.

With attendance rates at 5% and dropping, entire countries are damned. Yet to commit the mortal sin of missing church on Sunday, they would need to be aware of the sin. Therefore, according to the Catechism, they would be more likely not to be in a state of rave sin if tey new nothing about the Church. I find that to be an odd dogma. I’m not sure where ‘original sin’ plays into this, but I you can live outside if a state of grave sin without being baptized, then the church has contributed substantially to the damnation of hundreds of millions of people, by its own standards.
 
I’m unfamiliar with a source for your statement that by using an electrode, a Christian, for example, will think that Christ is in the room. I have read at least one study that monitored brain activity during prayer and meditation. There are over one billion Catholics in the world.

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/02/21/number-of-catholics-in-the-world-grows-by-15m-in-a-year/

I also don’t understand what you mean by the word spiritual.

Peace,
Ed
Yes, it is fascinating. There is a specific part of the brain which mediates spiritual experiences. If you excite that part of the brain then the test subject has an intense religious experience.

It is only speculation as to what evolutionary advantage this confers.

We are hard wired to have religious perceptions which we self generate and confuse with outside stimulus. It is a biological fact.

There are some interesting case studies as well which relate inherited genetic attributes to religious fervor.
 
Yes, it is fascinating. There is a specific part of the brain which mediates spiritual experiences. If you excite that part of the brain then the test subject has an intense religious experience.

It is only speculation as to what evolutionary advantage this confers.

We are hard wired to have religious perceptions which we self generate and confuse with outside stimulus. It is a biological fact.

There are some interesting case studies as well which relate inherited genetic attributes to religious fervor.
Mudgely is referring to the work of Dr. Michael Persinger. His work is highly contested and not nearly as conclusive as Mudgely would have us think. Less than 1% of his subjects reported having a religious experience. The majority only claimed to “sense a presence.” Now, here comes the KO punch:
In December 2004 Nature reported that a group of Swedish researchers led by Pehr Granqvist, a psychologist at Uppsala University in Sweden, had attempted to replicate Persinger’s experiments under double-blind conditions, and were not able to reproduce the effect. The study was published in Neuroscience Letters in 2005. Granqvist et al concluded that the presence or absence of the magnetic field had no relationship with any religious or spiritual experience reported by the participants, but was predicted entirely by their suggestibility and personality traits.
It’s quack science.
Richard Dawkins himself, who would be the first person to want to take this and run with it, subjected himself to it and said it didn’t work.
 
If I can feel positive about the fact that my consciousness, my identity, will completely disappear upon my physical death, that actually places me in a stronger position than those who base their hope upon a belief in the eternal persistence of consciousness…
There is no evidence that our consciousness will completely disappear upon our physical death. On the contrary, there is at least one positive evidence why our consciousness will survive the death of our body.

The evidence comes from our experience of consciousness itself. I am 63 years old now. When I was 10 years old, I looked at myself in the mirror. I can safely say that from that age up to now I have been looking at the mirror at least once a day. I have noticed my body change over the years. My appearance changed. My height and my weight changed. I can see myself aging with the passing of the years. And yet, I know that “I”, the person who looks at the mirror today, is the same “I” who looked at that mirror when he was just 10 years old. Call it the “self”, the “ego”, the “consciousness,” or the “soul.” Whatever you call it, it is that part of us - the “I” or our identity - which is not being affected by changes in the body. This simple testimony of our consciousness indicates very clearly that our consciousness is somehow independent of the body and, therefore, will likely survive the death of the body.

Note that I fully agree that our consciousness also depends on the work of the brain and all our bodily organs in the task of acquiring knowledge of the outside world. But what is so remarkable is the fact that my brain and my other organs have themselves changed since I was 10 years old. The blood that flows in my nerves and in my veins today are no longer the same blood that was flowing in my nerves and veins when I was young. The cells are being replaced constantly. Yet, the “I” remains the same. Does that not give you a very positive indication that there is something in us that abides, something that remains unchanged regardless of whatever changes take place in the body?

Indeed, this is the reason why people all over the world have an intuition or a belief in the immortality of the soul. Of course, not everyone is a philosopher. Many people have not explicitly enunciated in clear and lucid concepts their conviction about the spiritual nature of the human soul. Still, it is this conviction that explains their religious practices and rituals. For example, it explains why, among all members of the animal kingdom, only the human being buries and prays for the dead. This is a practice observed among the most primitive civilizations as well as the most advanced ones. I think that this is because people have a consciousness of consciousness. They are aware of a consciousness that exists in the body but is essentially independent of the body. And if the seat of this consciousness is the soul, then the soul will not die with the body.
 
Yet world population has grown at a greater rate. Tell us what the attendance rates are in Catholic countries like spain, Italy, France, brazil, mexicao, Belgium are John. You anti truth campaign is showing its vpl John.

With attendance rates at 5% and dropping, entire countries are damned. Yet to commit the mortal sin of missing church on Sunday, they would need to be aware of the sin. Therefore, according to the Catechism, they would be more likely not to be in a state of rave sin if tey new nothing about the Church. I find that to be an odd dogma. I’m not sure where ‘original sin’ plays into this, but I you can live outside if a state of grave sin without being baptized, then the church has contributed substantially to the damnation of hundreds of millions of people, by its own standards.
Oh Mudgely, you really are a hoot.

You can’t honestly, with a straight face, come here and tell us the Catholic Church has “.…contributed substantially to the damnation of millions of people.…” unless you admit that God exists!! You know, no God, no damnation. :rolleyes:

Now, if that little difficulty with your logic is not problematic enough for you, there is another. Which is, if not going to Mass causes one to be damned, then how can it be said the Church contributes to the damnation of Catholics if they choose not to go? Your example, however, contains even more convoluted logic, because it refers to non-Catholics who don’t even know about going to mass and damnation. So now, Medgely, please expalin how the catholic Church contributes to the damnation of people who aren’t catholics and who, according to you, don’t even know about it? :rolleyes:

Anyway, back to the original point you made, which was this in post #6 -
The Church is probably dying,
My response was this in post #7 -
Hey Mudgely, your anti-Catholic propaganda is showing its slip again.

February 22, 2011. The total number of Catholics worldwide is up 1.3% from last year, bringing the total number to 1.181 billion.
And then post #8 prodigalson 2011 pointed this out to you -
You claim the Church is dying, yet statistics show Christianity gains 80,000 new adherents every day, while atheism loses 300. Your statements are groundless, and furthermore, demonstrably false.
Sorry.
Well Mudgely, here’s even more information for you -
In America today, for example, a higher percentage of the population attends a house of worship weekly than is the case in the theocratic state of Iran: 40 per cent in the US, 39 per cent in Iran. Furthermore, in China today, half a century after Chairman Mao declared China to be religion-free, there are more practising Christians than there are members of the Communist Party. source
It looks very much as though the anti-truth campaign is yours Mudgely. Your figures are very smudgely, you see. :rolleyes:

Now that “source” I quoted you would do well to read. It actually goes a long way towards answering the question posed by this thread’s topic. read it and do try to put aside your anti-catholicism for just a minute or two.

Oh yes, before I forget, back in post #6 you stated the Church was an -
… an out of date multi billion dollar religion profit center which most people can’t relate with.
Considering how the numbers show that more and more people are relating to the Church, as the figures demonstrate, you might need to reassess what you wrote. And, considering how the Church is a not for profit organisation that spends around $70 million on aid in 144 countries around the world, you might even feel the need to apologise for your own anti-truth campaign.
 
ASimon

Actually, it’s interesting you mention Dawkins, since for all his supposed demagoguery, he’s quite happy to admit that he participates in the ritualistic trappings of religion (saying grace, for example) when polite decorum demands it. It doesn’t mean anything to him - but he goes along as a matter of simple courtesy.

“It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, “mad cow” disease, and many others, but I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world’s great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate.” Richard Dawkins

Is that “simple courtesy”? 😃

**Sam Harris also promotes something like a similar idea - just that there are real battles to fight in the world, but that organizing a standing atheist army to attack every trivial piece of stupidity that religion proffers is, at best, a waste of time. **

“It is difficult to imagine a set of beliefs more suggestive of mental illness than those that lie at the heart of many of our religious traditions.”

More “waste of time”? 😃
You need to pay better attention.
 
Note that I fully agree that our consciousness also depends on the work of the brain and all our bodily organs in the task of acquiring knowledge of the outside world. But what is so remarkable is the fact that my brain and my other organs have themselves changed since I was 10 years old. The blood that flows in my nerves and in my veins today are no longer the same blood that was flowing in my nerves and veins when I was young. The cells are being replaced constantly. Yet, the “I” remains the same. Does that not give you a very positive indication that there is something in us that abides, something that remains unchanged regardless of whatever changes take place in the body?
Not necessarily. Whilst the substance of the body retains roughly the same structure, it tends to perform continuous functions - my heart, my liver, my bowel, kidneys, lungs, etc still function in the same way as they did when I was 10 years old, with no disruption even through the process of being replaced by entirely new collections of cells over the years. Why might this not be the case for the brain? It stores and processes information and memories, allowing us to form a coherent linear picture of our lives. All this is disrupted by brain damage, just as the functioning of other organs is disrupted by disease or injury. Anyone who has ever had the misfortune to witness a loved one succumb to dementia knows that whilst the body remains whole, the personality is fundamentally altered. This is very strong evidence that personality, memory, and consciousness itself are all dependent upon a living, functioning brain.
Indeed, this is the reason why people all over the world have an intuition or a belief in the immortality of the soul. Of course, not everyone is a philosopher. Many people have not explicitly enunciated in clear and lucid concepts their conviction about the spiritual nature of the human soul. Still, it is this conviction that explains their religious practices and rituals. For example, it explains why, among all members of the animal kingdom, only the human being buries and prays for the dead. This is a practice observed among the most primitive civilizations as well as the most advanced ones. I think that this is because people have a consciousness of consciousness. They are aware of a consciousness that exists in the body but is essentially independent of the body. And if the seat of this consciousness is the soul, then the soul will not die with the body.
We find it difficult to imagine a world without us in it, once we are in it. We cannot, by any direct act of will, switch off our consciousness - as distinct from allowing ourselves to fall asleep or taking substances that alter our states of consciousness. Our intuitions about ourselves are not necessarily reliable pointers to what is really going on. One of the reasons that it is so difficult to study consciousness is that we have to do so from the inside. The problem with considering the soul as the seat of consciousness is that no-one has ever detected any such entity, nor has any such entity made its existence known to us independently of a body. If the conscious entity is ultimately independent of the body - as it must be in order to survive the body’s death - then at what point does it enter the body? Does it grow from physical substance, or is it implanted at some point? And when might be this point? Why does our consciousness change with bodily states if it has its basis in a persistent, separate entity? If consciousness is separate from the body and persists after death, it is reasonable to suppose that the conscious entity would be detectable apart from the body. It is not, and this is not for lack of trying.
 
Whilst the substance of the body retains roughly the same structure, it tends to perform continuous functions - my heart, my liver, my bowel, kidneys, lungs, etc still function in the same way as they did when I was 10 years old, with no disruption even through the process of being replaced by entirely new collections of cells over the years.
The functions of your organs may be the same, but they are becoming less efficient. For example, your body might not be able to remove excess sugar efficiently, or you might start losing your hairs, etc. You can tell you are aging, even if the process is very slow, but your consciousness of yourself does not change. You know that you are still you.
Anyone who has ever had the misfortune to witness a loved one succumb to dementia knows that whilst the body remains whole, the personality is fundamentally altered. This is very strong evidence that personality, memory, and consciousness itself are all dependent upon a living, functioning brain.
Oh yes, the soul is dependent on the body (the brain and other organs). But it depends on the body, not essentially, but instrumentally. The soul cannot think properly without the brain, but this does not mean that the act of knowing, for example, is primarily the act of the brain and not of the soul. In the same manner, a pianist cannot play music without the piano, but that does not mean that the act of making music is primarily the act of the piano and not of the pianist. I look at the bodily organ (such as the brain) to be merely the instrument of the soul. Just as a pianist cannot play good music with a broken piano, so the soul might not be able to function properly if the brain suffers an injury.

To illustrate further the instrumental function of the brain, consider what happens when you explain the circle to a child. To tell the child what a circle is, you probably will draw different circles on the blackboard – some big, some small, some red, some yellow, some blue, and then tell the child that those are circles. Also, you could draw different shapes – some circles, some triangles and some rectangles. Then tell him which figures are circles. You don’t really have to draw too many of them. By a mental process of abstraction, the child will quickly get what you mean by “circle.” The child will understand that its being round is what makes a circle a circle, and that its color, size or location on the blackboard does not matter. The mind is amazing. It knows what a circle is in general, independently of the material qualities of the circles that it started with. When that happens, then you can tell that the child no longer depends on those images for its understanding of the circle. Sure, this child might still have a mental picture of the circles that you drew on the blackboard, but the idea of a circle that he knows will not be limited to a red, yellow, or blue circle, or a big or small circle. So, although the child started with those sensible circles, he ends up with an idea or understanding of a circle that is in a way universal, non-sensible, and independent of the material characteristics from which the idea was originally derived. Then as the child grows, it then acquires understanding of more complex ideas that you can’t even picture or imagine. For example, he acquires an understanding of “justice”, “truth”, or “infinity” – all of which are not even imaginable because they are non-sensible. So, while the soul is dependent on the brain, the sense organs and various sensible impressions for its original source of knowledge, the kind of information it ultimately produces in itself is non-material and non-sensible. And if these are non-material, then they could not have been the product of a material organ like the brain. Knowledge and intellection by nature are non-material functions. Therefore, the seat of these non-material functions must be a spiritual soul, not the brain.

Some people have compared the mind to a super-computer. But any such analogy ends in dismal failure. The mind is not a machine. The human mind has consciousness and can reflect upon itself, which no machine could do. The eye can never see itself seeing, but the mind can think of itself thinking. This ability to reflect upon itself shows again the non-material nature of the soul, and it shows the big difference between the soul and so-called “thinking machines.” Computers are nothing but high-speed idiots.
One of the reasons that it is so difficult to study consciousness is that we have to do so from the inside.
It is the only reason why you know anything about consciousness at all. Without experiencing consciousness, you won’t even know what consciousness means.
The problem with considering the soul as the seat of consciousness is that no-one has ever detected any such entity, nor has any such entity made its existence known to us independently of a body.
If the soul is spiritual, then it would be futile to try to detect it in the laboratory by means of physical tools and equipments. You learn the existence of a spiritual soul, not by experimental methods, but by introspection and by a rational method or philosophy. You start by analyzing how the mind works, and finding out what the nature of human knowledge is. Once you establish that human knowledge is essentially a non-material operation, then you know that the power that performs it is non-material (although it could have been using material organs as instruments).
If the conscious entity is ultimately independent of the body - as it must be in order to survive the body’s death - then at what point does it enter the body?
The human soul, being spiritual, could not have evolved from, or with, the body. Therefore, it must have been created directly by God at the moment of conception.
 
Why does our consciousness change with bodily states if it has its basis in a persistent, separate entity?
The soul is not a separate entity from the body, but is distinct and separable from the body. Therefore, it can survive the death of the body. However, it is using the body as its instrument. So, as long as the soul is united to the body, the soul is dependent on the body for its operations. In that case, our conscious mental operations can be affected by changes in the state of the body, just as piano music is affected by the the condition of the piano.
If consciousness is separate from the body and persists after death, it is reasonable to suppose that the conscious entity would be detectable apart from the body. It is not, and this is not for lack of trying.
It is detectable if it is material. But we already proved above that, because its act of knowledge and intellection is non-material, the soul (the seat of consciousness) must also be spiritual.
 
Some people have compared the mind to a super-computer. But any such analogy ends in dismal failure. The mind is not a machine. The human mind has consciousness and can reflect upon itself, which no machine could do. The eye can never see itself seeing, but the mind can think of itself thinking. This ability to reflect upon itself shows again the non-material nature of the soul, and it shows the big difference between the soul and so-called “thinking machines.” Computers are nothing but high-speed idiots.

…]

If the soul is spiritual, then it would be futile to try to detect it in the laboratory by means of physical tools and equipments. You learn the existence of a spiritual soul, not by experimental methods, but by introspection and by a rational method or philosophy. You start by analyzing how the mind works, and finding out what the nature of human knowledge is. Once you establish that human knowledge is essentially a non-material operation, then you know that the power that performs it is non-material (although it could have been using material organs as instruments).

The human soul, being spiritual, could not have evolved from, or with, the body. Therefore, it must have been created directly by God at the moment of conception.
The soul is not a separate entity from the body, but is distinct and separable from the body. Therefore, it can survive the death of the body. However, it is using the body as its instrument. So, as long as the soul is united to the body, the soul is dependent on the body for its operations. In that case, our conscious mental operations can be affected by changes in the state of the body, just as piano music is affected by the the condition of the piano.
I big 👍 from a scientist who also loves philosophy.
 
Mudgely is referring to the work of Dr. Michael Persinger. His work is highly contested and not nearly as conclusive as Mudgely would have us think. Less than 1% of his subjects reported having a religious experience. The majority only claimed to “sense a presence.” Now, here comes the KO punch:

It’s quack science.
Richard Dawkins himself, who would be the first person to want to take this and run with it, subjected himself to it and said it didn’t work.
There is rarely a KO punch, as you call it in science. You could say that it exists with evolution and natural selection, gravity, and a few other theories. It’s quite presumptuous to assume what I would have anyone believe, nearly as much as presuming what Professor Dawkins would “run with”.

The bottom line with religion and mythology is that it goes back way before Christianity. The first proof is in the cave drawings which substantially predate the Christians. Catholicism is interesting for its history and it’s richness, but it is only one more religion. As a 100 billion dollars per year organization, along with the spiritual and cultural role it fills, it is fun to understand it better. But it should not be confused with being anything more than it is, nor anything less.

The question this thread poses is what is the next step? Will the Church become relevant again, or will it continue to lose relevance, influence, and revenue? Is there an evolving atheism which also fills a spiritual need? Is religious sentiment as scientists like Einstein, Dawkins, and Hawking describe the ascendant spirituality?

This is a fair question given the historic and anthropological evidence, and the last 100 years of social and scientific progress. A religious system cannot plant it’s feet in the mud (or its head) and hope to survive in this world with its accelerating rate of change and knowledge growth.
 
The functions of your organs may be the same, but they are becoming less efficient. For example, your body might not be able to remove excess sugar efficiently, or you might start losing your hairs, etc. You can tell you are aging, even if the process is very slow, but your consciousness of yourself does not change. You know that you are still you.

Oh yes, the soul is dependent on the body (the brain and other organs). But it depends on the body, not essentially, but instrumentally. The soul cannot think properly without the brain, but this does not mean that the act of knowing, for example, is primarily the act of the brain and not of the soul. In the same manner, a pianist cannot play music without the piano, but that does not mean that the act of making music is primarily the act of the piano and not of the pianist. I look at the bodily organ (such as the brain) to be merely the instrument of the soul. Just as a pianist cannot play good music with a broken piano, so the soul might not be able to function properly if the brain suffers an injury.



Some people have compared the mind to a super-computer. But any such analogy ends in dismal failure. The mind is not a machine. The human mind has consciousness and can reflect upon itself, which no machine could do. The eye can never see itself seeing, but the mind can think of itself thinking. This ability to reflect upon itself shows again the non-material nature of the soul, and it shows the big difference between the soul and so-called “thinking machines.” Computers are nothing but high-speed idiots.

It is the only reason why you know anything about consciousness at all. Without experiencing consciousness, you won’t even know what consciousness means.

If the soul is spiritual, then it would be futile to try to detect it in the laboratory by means of physical tools and equipments. You learn the existence of a spiritual soul, not by experimental methods, but by introspection and by a rational method or philosophy. You start by analyzing how the mind works, and finding out what the nature of human knowledge is. Once you establish that human knowledge is essentially a non-material operation, then you know that the power that performs it is non-material (although it could have been using material organs as instruments).

The human soul, being spiritual, could not have evolved from, or with, the body. Therefore, it must have been created directly by God at the moment of conception.
A number of claims are made here which appear to be only assertions, or do you have any evidence for your description of the nature of the soul?

Your theories on machine self awareness, pattern recognition, and other computional topics seems ill informed and outdated to me. The field is advancing very rapidly. There are respected computer scientists who believed that the mental capacities which you ascribe to being related to having a soul will be exceeded by computers within a few decades. These predictions have historically underestimated progress when viewed in retrospect. Nobody can predict where it will go, except to say that it will probably be beyond what anyone can imagine today. Few people could have predicted even a the capabilities of something like an iPhone 4s withi Siri in the 80’s. Toffler might have come the closest.
 
Oh Mudgely, you really are a hoot.

You can’t honestly, with a straight face, come here and tell us the Catholic Church has “.…contributed substantially to the damnation of millions of people.…” unless you admit that God exists!! You know, no God, no damnation. :rolleyes:

Now, if that little difficulty with your logic is not problematic enough for you, there is another. Which is, if not going to Mass causes one to be damned, then how can it be said the Church contributes to the damnation of Catholics if they choose not to go? Your example, however, contains even more convoluted logic, because it refers to non-Catholics who don’t even know about going to mass and damnation. So now, Medgely, please expalin how the catholic Church contributes to the damnation of people who aren’t catholics and who, according to you, don’t even know about it? :rolleyes:

Anyway, back to the original point you made, which was this in post #6 -

My response was this in post #7 -

And then post #8 prodigalson 2011 pointed this out to you -

Well Mudgely, here’s even more information for you -
It looks very much as though the anti-truth campaign is yours Mudgely. Your figures are very smudgely, you see. :rolleyes:

Now that “source” I quoted you would do well to read. It actually goes a long way towards answering the question posed by this thread’s topic. read it and do try to put aside your anti-catholicism for just a minute or two.

Oh yes, before I forget, back in post #6 you stated the Church was an -

Considering how the numbers show that more and more people are relating to the Church, as the figures demonstrate, you might need to reassess what you wrote. And, considering how the Church is a not for profit organisation that spends around $70 million on aid in 144 countries around the world, you might even feel the need to apologise for your own anti-truth campaign.
John, it is not anti catholic to point out that Christianity is a religion, just as Hinduism and Islam are religions. Catholicism is a Christian variant as Sunni is an Islamic variant. No more and no less. Your failure understand that is why you need to perform all these silly mental gymnastics. That is actually the hoot.

Your confusion of religious law with “natural law” is a good example of this shortcoming in your rhetoric. If you follow the evolution of the idea from Aristotle through Locke then you will see what I mean. Locke would assert logically that the primal position of the Pope is excluded by natural law. Obviously this is incompatible with Catholicism.

But please stop trying to hijack the thread.
 
There is rarely a KO punch, as you call it in science. You could say that it exists with evolution and natural selection, gravity, and a few other theories. It’s quite presumptuous to assume what I would have anyone believe, nearly as much as presuming what Professor Dawkins would “run with”.
I’m not presuming anything about what you would have people believe:
There is a specific part of the brain which mediates spiritual experiences. If you excite that part of the brain then the test subject has an intense religious experience.
We are hard wired to have religious perceptions which we self generate and confuse with outside stimulus. It is a biological fact.
Your words. Stated as fact. Where does my presumption enter into it?

As for Dr. Dawkins, why do you think he subjected himself to the experiment? Again, there is no presumption here. If memory serves me, I’m pretty sure he stated in the God Delusion, wherein he discussed his involvement, that he went in hopes of finding it to be legit, as it would be a tremendous support for his case. At least he was honest enough to admit it didn’t work.
The bottom line with religion and mythology is that it goes back way before Christianity. The first proof is in the cave drawings which substantially predate the Christians.
GASP I had no idea! Do you think Christians are that ignorant? Really? Let’s see… for starters, Judaism is a heck of a lot older than Christianity, and every single Christian in the world must by the very nature of being Christian be familiar with it. And of course, Gilgamesh, the Rigveda, so on and so on. Doesn’t mean anything. Science and reason go way back before the theory of evolution. I’m sure you would laugh if I claimed that that fact was a knock-out argument against evolution. So, what’s your point?
Catholicism is interesting for its history and it’s richness, but it is only one more religion. As a 100 billion dollars per year organization, along with the spiritual and cultural role it fills, it is fun to understand it better. But it should not be confused with being anything more than it is, nor anything less.
Oh, great arbiter of wisdom and unsubstantiated truths, please tell us. What IS the Church?
I’d really like to see your sources for the Church’s 100,000,000,000 dollar a year income, but I’m sure you don’t have one.
The question this thread poses is what is the next step? Will the Church become relevant again, or will it continue to lose relevance, influence, and revenue? Is there an evolving atheism which also fills a spiritual need? Is religious sentiment as scientists like Einstein, Dawkins, and Hawking describe the ascendant spirituality?
In the view of faithful Catholics, the Church has never and will never cease being relevant. Whether the world thinks it is or not is of no consequence. As someone pointed out, Church membership is growing. Plus, if you really knew much about Catholicism, you would know that Jesus warned us that the world would always be against us.

Secondly, Atheism cannot fulfill a spiritual need because it denies the spiritual realm. Now you’re just being silly.

And your last question isn’t even a complete sentence. If you’re going to try and argue, at least do so coherently. 😛
This is a fair question given the historic and anthropological evidence, and the last 100 years of social and scientific progress. A religious system cannot plant it’s feet in the mud (or its head) and hope to survive in this world with its accelerating rate of change and knowledge growth.
Truth never changes, friend. 🙂 And to leave you with the words of one of my favorite people in the world:

“Truth is not determined by a majority vote.” - Pope Benedict XVI
 
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