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chessnerd321
Guest
Ooooo one question. How DID they manage to make it. Give me a break.
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Gingersnaps4
Guest
As a catechist, I would prefer that confirmation be a little later than first communion. I feel like back when it was done earlier, families lived more Christ-centered lives in general and had something of a Domestic Church in the home, education wise. Now, it’s mostly not so, and I think we would see a large drop in faith formation attendance and thus an even bigger generation of completely uneducated Catholics. The kids already mostly don’t come back after confirmation as it is, and it’s at 5th grade right now in my diocese.
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goout
Guest
This issue is not really a matter of attaining head knowledge. It’s more a matter of spiritual disposition, specifically the response of faith that is operative in both the individual and the family (ie parents). A child may have a simple faith that is not present in a 15 year old.
Again, we already make these prudential judgments when baptism is denied on occasion.
Why are these judgments made in some cases and not others?
The elephant in the room is: something like 75% of those receiving sacraments of initiation live in families that have no intention of responding to grace with faith. They are “passed through”, for superficial reasons IMO. In our parish, access to the sacraments amounts to membership in the school, and a desire not to hold anyone back. That is nowhere close to sufficient reason to be baptized or confirmed or receive the Eucharist.
The RCIA model is a good one, where a process of initiation is in place to awaken faith, so that grace might bear fruit.
Again, we already make these prudential judgments when baptism is denied on occasion.
Why are these judgments made in some cases and not others?
The elephant in the room is: something like 75% of those receiving sacraments of initiation live in families that have no intention of responding to grace with faith. They are “passed through”, for superficial reasons IMO. In our parish, access to the sacraments amounts to membership in the school, and a desire not to hold anyone back. That is nowhere close to sufficient reason to be baptized or confirmed or receive the Eucharist.
The RCIA model is a good one, where a process of initiation is in place to awaken faith, so that grace might bear fruit.
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ziapueblo
Guest
It’s a beautiful thing, watching your young child receive the Eucharist!
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Three parts equal a whole.
Confirmations is one third of the three.
Jim
Confirmations is one third of the three.
Jim
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PetraG
Guest
The problem is that setting the age at an older age denies the sacrament to young people at the age of reason who want it. Why? Because they might rebel against it? In that case, why are they admitted to the Eucharist so soon?
As it is now, a second grader can (and must) agree to baptism, if the young person hasn’t been baptized by then. A parent cannot force a child to be baptized who is old enough to make the decision because the child is at the age of reason. A baptized child of the same age is usually denied Confirmation no matter how much they want it…even though children entering the Church for the first time may receive Confirmation at a younger age than those who were baptized as infants!!
To delay confirmation until First Holy Communion is to delay until the candidate has reached the age of reason. That is late enough, since by that time the child is allowed to refuse the sacrament on his or her own authority.
As it is now, a second grader can (and must) agree to baptism, if the young person hasn’t been baptized by then. A parent cannot force a child to be baptized who is old enough to make the decision because the child is at the age of reason. A baptized child of the same age is usually denied Confirmation no matter how much they want it…even though children entering the Church for the first time may receive Confirmation at a younger age than those who were baptized as infants!!
To delay confirmation until First Holy Communion is to delay until the candidate has reached the age of reason. That is late enough, since by that time the child is allowed to refuse the sacrament on his or her own authority.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Confirmation like Baptism, became more of a social event for Catholic families than a spiritual experience in the gift of faith.
I suppose the gifts of the Holy Spirit will be given to the individual before they’re mature or deep enough in their faith to use them.
It’s would be similar to a child who receives a bicycle for Christmas, even though that child doesn’t know how to ride a two wheel bike. However, in time the child will learn and will become proficient at riding a two wheel bicycle.
Many people never experience the Holy Spirit for it requires “repentance,” which by definition means, a change of heart. Turning to Christ requires one to die to self and surrender to Jesus, who gives new life to the individual.
Some how, the Catholic Church failed to teach this message and many hear if from TV evangelists instead.
In today’s world, it’s less likely that the young generations will come to Christ as their won parents have become skeptical about religion and never have a spiritual experience in Christ.
We’re living in spiritual dangerous times and Confirmation is still more of a social event than a spiritual experience.
Jim
I suppose the gifts of the Holy Spirit will be given to the individual before they’re mature or deep enough in their faith to use them.
It’s would be similar to a child who receives a bicycle for Christmas, even though that child doesn’t know how to ride a two wheel bike. However, in time the child will learn and will become proficient at riding a two wheel bicycle.
Many people never experience the Holy Spirit for it requires “repentance,” which by definition means, a change of heart. Turning to Christ requires one to die to self and surrender to Jesus, who gives new life to the individual.
Some how, the Catholic Church failed to teach this message and many hear if from TV evangelists instead.
In today’s world, it’s less likely that the young generations will come to Christ as their won parents have become skeptical about religion and never have a spiritual experience in Christ.
We’re living in spiritual dangerous times and Confirmation is still more of a social event than a spiritual experience.
Jim
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PetraG
Guest
I would not go that far…especially to imply that this contemporary time is somehow unique in having some members of the faithful who go through the motions without as much appreciation or personal engagement as would be ideal.Confirmation like Baptism, became more of a social event for Catholic families than a spiritual experience in the gift of faith.
I suppose the gifts of the Holy Spirit will be given to the individual before they’re mature or deep enough in their faith to use them.
It’s would be similar to a child who receives a bicycle for Christmas, even though that child doesn’t know how to ride a two wheel bike. However, in time the child will learn and will become proficient at riding a two wheel bicycle.
Many people never experience the Holy Spirit for it requires “repentance,” which by definition means, a change of heart. Turning to Christ requires one to die to self and surrender to Jesus, who gives new life to the individual.
Some how, the Catholic Church failed to teach this message and many hear if from TV evangelists instead.
In today’s world, it’s less likely that the young generations will come to Christ as their won parents have become skeptical about religion and never have a spiritual experience in Christ.
We’re living in spiritual dangerous times and Confirmation is still more of a social event than a spiritual experience.
Jim
I have heard a priest say that he thought 1st and 2nd graders have a fuller appreciation of meeting the Lord in Holy Communion than a lot of adults, because so many adults drift off into everything being about their thoughts in their heads, rather than the whole of themselves. They get detached from themselves, living all in their heads. That doesn’t happen to many people by the time they’re 7 or 8 years old.
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Gingersnaps4
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I think I wasn’t clear with my post. Its not just that they would be missing faith formation. They already don’t go to mass. So they will be unchurched and uneducated Catholics starting at age 7, then. In other words, purely secular, cultural Catholics. The gift of the Holy Spirit is wonderful but I feel like it would most likely sit dormant in the 75% of kids that go through my FF classes and stop after confirmation, and never go to mass, as well.
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babochka
Guest
I’m not sure why we have to be mature in our faith to receive the grace that will help us mature in our faith.I suppose the gifts of the Holy Spirit will be given to the individual before they’re mature or deep enough in their faith to use them.
The problem that I see with later Confirmation is that we are denying children graces needed to help them in their Christian life. It’s like we want them to demonstrate that they can reach a certain level of competence in mature faith and virtue before they deserve God’s help. The purpose of the sacrament is to perfect and strengthen the Christian, to give the gifts of the Holy Spirit. And what is the purpose of the gifts of wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, fortitude, piety and fear of the Lord? To perfect virtue. To use the soldier of Christ analogy-- it’s like sending them into battle without any weapons and without any armor. If we believe that the sacrament does what the Church says it does, why would we push for later reception of the sacrament?
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His_helpmeet
Guest
As I understand it, when the Church first began, people were usually baptized, confirmed, and received the Holy Eucharist at the same time. This is still the standard practice for adult converts as we know.
Then, as the Church began to grow, they started to have a logistical problem. The bishop was the ordinary minister of Confirmation. The thing was, the bishop was only one person, and because they didn’t have the level of efficient transportation that we have today, it could take a long time for him to get to all of the parish communities to confirm everyone. Sometimes an interval of several years elapsed before he could get there.
Based on these difficulties, the decision was made to defer Confirmation until later, although, as we know, this discipline was not practiced in the eastern Church because the authority to confirm was delegated to the priests.
Then, as the Church began to grow, they started to have a logistical problem. The bishop was the ordinary minister of Confirmation. The thing was, the bishop was only one person, and because they didn’t have the level of efficient transportation that we have today, it could take a long time for him to get to all of the parish communities to confirm everyone. Sometimes an interval of several years elapsed before he could get there.
Based on these difficulties, the decision was made to defer Confirmation until later, although, as we know, this discipline was not practiced in the eastern Church because the authority to confirm was delegated to the priests.
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dochawk
Guest
No.Then, as the Church began to grow, they started to have a logistical problem. The bishop was the ordinary minister of Confirmation.
The bishop didn’t become the ordinary minister of confirmation until well into the second millennium. And even then, it wasn’t about availability, but rather that the laity had come to see them as administrators rather than in a pastoral role. Confirmation was separated for the specific purpose of reinforcing the pastoral role of the bishop.
hawk
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Ann_Stanton
Guest
If they are confirmed at a younger age, then no one has to worry about yearly service hours, yearly retreats, required summer activities, and 2 year sacramental preparation programs. Also, it would be cheaper for families. They would not have to pay religious education fees, retreat fees, and service hour fees.
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babochka
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Service hour fees? Really?If they are confirmed at a younger age, then no one has to worry about yearly service hours, yearly retreats, required summer activities, and 2 year sacramental preparation programs. Also, it would be cheaper for families. They would not have to pay religious education fees, retreat fees, and service hour fees.
I think that many people are very out-of-touch with the financial realities of raising children. It is easy to say that it is just $50 here, $100 there… In my case times 6. All the little things add up.
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Gingersnaps4
Guest
But don’t you feel like the community service, retreats etc are educational and build character? And they get to spend time with other Catholic kids especially on the retreats. The money savings though is a good point and would apply for many. I wish all parishes could be like mine, we are a stewardship parish and so have no fees for sacramental retreats or faith formation etc.
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Ann_Stanton
Guest
I do not think a few days of community service is worth 150-200 dollars during the summer. Even first communion “retreats/workshops” for the day is $50 per day. Then the cost of RE is prohibitive for many families. I am all for community service and retreats, but the cost can be too much. I do not have any children, but I have taught children. So, we have a special day for First Confession, First Communion and Confirmation. Families have to buy all white for First Communion and Red for Confirmation. Sacraments should not drain family budgets.
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Phemie
Guest
In my parish we charge the parents for the books. That’s it.
We certainly don’t require special clothes, the only criteria is that the clothes be clean and modest. We don’t want new clothes to be the focus of the day. Even 32 years ago when our daughter made her First Communion I got her a dress she could wear to church each week, nothing fancy.
I’m trying to figure out how community service costs the ones who are doing it. Our school system (a public system) requires something like 30 hours of volunteer service to graduate. Kids volunteer in our performance venue, doing anything from teching shows to shoveling snow.
We certainly don’t require special clothes, the only criteria is that the clothes be clean and modest. We don’t want new clothes to be the focus of the day. Even 32 years ago when our daughter made her First Communion I got her a dress she could wear to church each week, nothing fancy.
I’m trying to figure out how community service costs the ones who are doing it. Our school system (a public system) requires something like 30 hours of volunteer service to graduate. Kids volunteer in our performance venue, doing anything from teching shows to shoveling snow.
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Vico
Guest
Confirmation or Chrysmation can only be received once, even though it not be fruitful until the person that has received it is in a state of sanctifying grace. If not in a state of grace at the time of Confirmation or Chrysmation, one still receives it validly, even though it is not lawful.I also think when it comes to being confirmed especially in highschool, I think that the Holy Spirit understands that, he is not bound by the sacraments. In that during the initiation of confirmation if someone is not serious, I dont think he would lend his graces to them. Even though the priests would go through with the proceedings.
I think what might happen is if at a later date the individual does become serious then I think that would be when the holy spirit might give him these graces.
Catechism
Baltimore Catechism1295 By this anointing the confirmand receives the “mark,” the seal of the Holy Spirit. …
1304 Like Baptism which it completes, Confirmation is given only once, for it too imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual mark , the “character,” which is the sign that Jesus Christ has marked a Christian with the seal of his Spirit by clothing him with power from on high so that he may be his witness.121
1310 To receive Confirmation one must be in a state of grace. …
Q. 691. To receive Confirmation worthily is it necessary to be in the state of grace?
A. To receive Confirmation worthily it is necessary to be in the state of grace.
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CilladeRoma
Guest
We do not require children to wear red or white- if they chose too, that is on the parent.
Materials cost money. So do snacks and food if a lunch is needed.
And, I have never been a member of a parish, where is cost was prohibitive that a child was refused the Sacrament.
Materials cost money. So do snacks and food if a lunch is needed.
And, I have never been a member of a parish, where is cost was prohibitive that a child was refused the Sacrament.
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Mi_Rose
Guest
Everything is free at our parish and parents buy the clothes they choose. They kids are always dressed up. Some of those dress clothes may have been expensive and some may have come from thrift stores.
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