Moving to get away from the poor

[Augustine777]

OP here. Thank you all for your thoughts. I’d like to clarify a few things.

We’re not worried about the neighborhood corrupting our kids. We know ten or more families who have raised/ are raising responsible, devout children in the city. These include three sets of Godparents and our close friends. Several of the older children have been baby sitters for us and we get to know them well. Of course, we also have friends raising kids in the suburbs. The schools we are considering for our children are either in the city or a near suburb, so they may have the same classmates regardless.

Regarding whether we are supporting our neighbors, I’ll say this. We spend tens of thousands in the neighborhood - groceries, car repairs, vet, dentist, restaurants, cleaners, gym, eye doctor, etc. We also pay $9k+ in local property taxes, sales taxes, etc. Maybe that’s a drop in the bucket, but if it doesn’t matter, then why bother with charity either? Also, I think our neighbors enjoy being around us for the same reasons we would enjoy being among the privileged in an elite suburb.

 

[Augustine777]

Continued…

If we’re being honest with ourselves, seeing other people struggle and suffer is unpleasant. Walking around a working-class neighborhood, you’re going to see people duct taping the bumpers back on their cars. You’re going to see crowds at the grocery store when the Food Stamp cards are refilled. You’re going to see seniors surviving on only social security who can’t afford to fix their gutters.

When we look at homes for sale in the ‘burbs, the porches have flowers, the passing cars are late model, and everyone’s neatly dressed. The suburbs fine people for peeling paint or broken sidewalks, so the rough edges aren’t there. You just sort exhale and say, “aww, it’s so nice and pretty.” If you overhear a conversation, their worries are where their season ticket seats are and which new SVU to lease.

Everyone who has a good income gets to make this decision. They can live somewhere where they see struggling people every day and have an opportunity boost them up a little. Or they can move somewhere that looks like a magazine spread and escape from other people’s troubles. That’s what I’m trying to weigh. If I only cared about my families’ enjoyment, we’d be heading for the ‘burbs. Is living near the poor and working poor a worthy sacrifice? Or is it okay to live where strict zoning makes darn sure the hungry, thirsty, naked, sick stranger never gets anywhere near my house?

 

[3DOCTORS]

Hope this isn’t a derailment of the thread - it’s just an observation. There really shouldn’t be any intrinsic reason why “poor” neighborhoods have to be crime-ridden or trashy. Cleaning and upkeep aren’t costly unless you have a big project, and often in those neighborhoods there is grant money or somewhere that might help with something like that. But due to fallen human nature and ignorance, many neighborhoods end up blighted and to a greater or lesser degree, prone to crime.

When I was living in the low income neighborhood, there were a lot of good-hearted single women like myself and we tried to look out for one another. There were good people with families, there were single parents, elderly people, and some middle-aged bachelors (whether gay or straight I don’t know). But people who tried to take care of their places and didn’t want any trouble, just wanted to be able to mind their own business and live a decent life. The problems of bugs (or mice, in another place) were another matter; some older buildings are hard to seal off or treat once the problem has gotten established.

If everyone would be truly good and neighborly they could all pull together to help one another out, and living on a tight budget wouldn’t be such a heavy burden.

P.S. @Augustine777 - it warms my heart that you care enough to wrestle with this. God bless you! So many don’t give it a second thought. Pray and discern, and I’m sure God will guide you to whatever is the best decision to make, and how to live once you’ve made it and carried it out. You seem like the type who will live the Gospel wherever you are.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I actually think this can be sinful, depending on your attitude. There can be lots of good reasons to move to a suburban neighborhood. Safety. Better schools. Proximity to work. A better investment of your money. A preferred aesthetic. Etc. getting away from poor people is not in that category. Not wanting your kids around the kids of single mothers is likewise an immoral reason to move. You could actually end up doing more spiritual harm to your kids by teaching them that kind of mindset than they would have received from the influence of a fatherless neighbor.

Quite frankly, being someone that was raised quite poor, I find it to be a distasteful post.

 

[Allegra]

Quite frankly, being someone that was raised quite poor, I find it to be a distasteful post.

Why do you find my post distasteful? Or do you mean the OP? Is it distasteful to call into question the motives behind the white flight that has damaged so many communities? I don’t think so. I think it’s honest. I’m glad the OP called the question.

 

[Della]

Actually, in most suburbs you have to use locks and hide valuables in your car too. Abs every now and then an entitled middle class teenager is given a car with a loud stereo and picks up his friends to go out with cans of spray paint. That isn’t the point. the point is that one has to be careful not to teach their children that money is equivalent to morality and privilege isn’t synonymous with superiority.

Which is what I also wrote.

 

[Della]

Continued…

If we’re being honest with ourselves, seeing other people struggle and suffer is unpleasant. Walking around a working-class neighborhood, you’re going to see people duct taping the bumpers back on their cars. You’re going to see crowds at the grocery store when the Food Stamp cards are refilled. You’re going to see seniors surviving on only social security who can’t afford to fix their gutters.

When we look at homes for sale in the ‘burbs, the porches have flowers, the passing cars are late model, and everyone’s neatly dressed. The suburbs fine people for peeling paint or broken sidewalks, so the rough edges aren’t there. You just sort exhale and say, “aww, it’s so nice and pretty.” If you overhear a conversation, their worries are where their season ticket seats are and which new SVU to lease.

Everyone who has a good income gets to make this decision. They can live somewhere where they see struggling people every day and have an opportunity boost them up a little. Or they can move somewhere that looks like a magazine spread and escape from other people’s troubles. That’s what I’m trying to weigh. If I only cared about my families’ enjoyment, we’d be heading for the ‘burbs. Is living near the poor and working poor a worthy sacrifice? Or is it okay to live where strict zoning makes darn sure the hungry, thirsty, naked, sick stranger never gets anywhere near my house?

Well, you were the one who listed all the bad things about your current neighborhood. So, we can only go by what you described.

It’s entirely up to you to decide where you want to live. I think it’s good to remember that even rich people have spiritual needs–sometimes more than the poor. Mother Teresa pointed that out to us, which we all know it to be true. Living in the burbs doesn’t guarantee that our kids will come out with good values. It’s not the simple, I’m sure we all agree. Only you can know if you need to move and why. If you need a larger house or want certain resources for your kids, such as better schools or safer area in which to live, as I wrote in my first post, you don’t have to move to the burbs for that. A modest home in a decent area is all that you need, yes?

 

[ToeInTheWater]

OP here. Thank you all for your thoughts. I’d like to clarify a few things.

We’re not worried about the neighborhood corrupting our kids. We know ten or more families who have raised/ are raising responsible, devout children in the city. These include three sets of Godparents and our close friends. Several of the older children have been baby sitters for us and we get to know them well. Of course, we also have friends raising kids in the suburbs. The schools we are considering for our children are either in the city or a near suburb, so they may have the same classmates regardless.

Regarding whether we are supporting our neighbors, I’ll say this. We spend tens of thousands in the neighborhood - groceries, car repairs, vet, dentist, restaurants, cleaners, gym, eye doctor, etc. We also pay $9k+ in local property taxes, sales taxes, etc. Maybe that’s a drop in the bucket, but if it doesn’t matter, then why bother with charity either? Also, I think our neighbors enjoy being around us for the same reasons we would enjoy being among the privileged in an elite suburb.

I think that if you’re really going to examine your conscience about this, then you need to examine your motivations for staying. The last comment sounds rather elitist to me, that you already see yourself as socially superior to the poorer members of your neighborhood, and don’t really see them as equal partners working together to improve the neighborhood, but just objects of your charity – indeed, that you even find allowing the poor to be in your presence, to be an act of charity.

Yeah, that smacks of elitism. It reminds me of topics that come up occasionally about dating, from men who state “I’m not really attracted to my current GF, but I know she’ll never do better than me if I break up with her. Would it be wrong to break up with her?”

Perhaps that is what adamhovey1988 found “distasteful” about your posts.

And that makes me wonder, is the real reason you’re reluctant to move the suburbs, is because you know you’ll just be another neighbor, socially equal to those living across the street from you, and will no longer be at the top of the social hierarchy?

I also grew up poor, but my parents raised me in a way that I knew my worth did not depend on my income. That’s what I don’t quite get from your posts, that poor people have dignity and worth merely because they ARE people, children of God. They’re not just victims of society deserving pity, they deserve respect. If you can’t give them that, then maybe it doesn’t matter if you live near them or not.

Also, as to “white flight” in general. I remember a family living near us, a mom, dad, daughter, and son, in a part of the neighborhood that wasn’t just poor, but dangerous. After the father almost got shot on the way home, they moved to a better neighborhood. It wasn’t the suburbs, but certainly not inner city, either. Surely that meant they were moving up in the world?

But then…the parents divorced, because of the father’s gambling addiction. The daughter is now a single mother. Simply moving to a “better neighborhood” is no guarantee of a better life.

 

[Augustine777]

ToeInTheWater, whether my motivations are elitist and how I relate to my neighbors are central questions here, so thank you for calling me out on it. The last sentence of my last post was meant to be very sarcastic.

I said my neighbors enjoy being around us. Let me give some examples. When I’m out walking and I pass someone, I greet them and make my kids greet them as well. We shovel the snow off our sidewalk. We pick up when our dog poops on someone’s lawn. We make sure our house and lawn are pleasant for passersby to look at. We don’t light off hundreds of fireworks after 10 PM on any evening in July. We do favors for people on our street frequently - drive someone to the airport, feed someone’s cat, lend a lawnmower.

These types of social norms are nearly universal in some neighborhoods but not others. If given the option between having us as neighbors or not, I think most people would rather have us.

I acknowledge that we may move out to the suburbs and then be miserable because we can’t afford to keep up with the Jones. Maybe some people are envious of us and would be happier if we moved away.

For what its worth, my Dad left when I was seven, and my mother raised my sister and I while being a substitute teacher. We were below the poverty line and uninsured until I finished school and started working. I have some sense of what its like for people just getting by, which is why its not so easy to just walk away.

 

[CradleJourney]

I have some sense of what its like for people just getting by, which is why its not so easy to just walk away.

So let’s ask this … what if it was your neighbor two doors down who asked you if they should move away because it would be better for them in “X” way. What would you tell them to do? Stay because you value them as a neighbor, or congratulate them on their new opportunity and wish them well in their new home while preparing to welcome in (hopefully) a nice new neighbor to their old property?

Who’s to say that whomever buys your place won’t also be an asset to the neighborhood and is looking to desperately find a place out of their own bad situation?

 

[Deus_tecum]

LOL - not really. More like a region where there’s an active chat room and everything (from dandelion infestations to coyote sightings) gets reported and discussed. I live in a large suburban area with over 500 homes in my subdivision alone and there are dozens of other similar sized additions all around us. So percentage wise it’s actually quite a small number that have issues - but it certainly is upsetting and a big issue to those it happens to and thanks to social media we hear about every instance.

Personally we’ve lived here for 19 years and not had a single issue at all during that entire time. Reported crime is the lowest in our area compared to surrounding areas and we have top ranked schools. I’ve lived where it was much, much worse.

Like most things, it’s all about perception - I was simply pointing out that the perception of a quiet, crime-free life is not guaranteed by location.

I don’t think anyone was speaking in absolute terms and claiming suburbs were crime free. We get people commenting on news articles when shootings happen in bad neighborhoods, and they say, “Shootings can and do happen anywhere.” Well, yeah, but NOT at the same rate. Many suburbs haven’t had a shooting in 20 years. Some urban areas have a shooting at least once a week. So even though both have had shootings, which neighborhood would be better to raise kids in?

 

[CradleJourney]

I don’t think anyone was speaking in absolute terms and claiming suburbs were crime free. We get people commenting on news articles when shootings happen in bad neighborhoods, and they say, “Shootings can and do happen anywhere.” Well, yeah, but NOT at the same rate. Many suburbs haven’t had a shooting in 20 years. Some urban areas have a shooting at least once a week. So even though both have had shootings, which neighborhood would be better to raise kids in?

Agreed - but the way I read the OP’s post was that they were not living in an area that had once-a-week shootings, but rather some petty crime activity such as I described, to which I was replying.

 

[Augustine777]

Cradle,
If the neighbor’s “X” was substantial, I would probably wish them well on their way. Substantial reasons could be a job transfer, a child that needs a special school across town, elderly parents who need their children closer, their house was burglarized and they don’t feel safe, etc.

If their reasons are shallow or sinful, I might try to talk them out of it. For example if they said, “I’m tired of being around working-class and low-income people. I’m moving somewhere that they can’t afford.” Really? Of course, most people are too politically correct to say that. They tell you (maybe tell themselves) some other reason. Taxes are too high!

In our region, the population has been stagnant for a long time. Some well off families are always building new homes out in exurbia, so there is a very strong filtering process. Households buying existing homes can buy into areas that were built for people with higher (at the time) incomes. This means that as the years go by, most neighborhoods transition to lower and lower income households. The oldest houses are abandoned and demolished. Prices never rise faster than inflation, and are frequently falling.

Given that situation, people around here are always trying to recruit well-off buyers to their neighborhoods. Seven years ago, when we were looking for our current house, and again now, dozens of people have tried to convince us to buy in their neighborhood (city or suburb). People at work, at playgroups, at the doctor’s office, etc. When we park our car in front of a house with a for sale sign, it is not unusual for neighbors to approach us and try to sell us on their block. I know this will sounds bizarre to people in strong housing markets, but this has been our experience in the Rust Belt.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

Cradle,
If the neighbor’s “X” was substantial, I would probably wish them well on their way. Substantial reasons could be a job transfer, a child that needs a special school across town, elderly parents who need their children closer, their house was burglarized and they don’t feel safe, etc.

If their reasons are shallow or sinful, I might try to talk them out of it. For example if they said, “I’m tired of being around working-class and low-income people. I’m moving somewhere that they can’t afford.” Really? Of course, most people are too politically correct to say that. They tell you (maybe tell themselves) some other reason. Taxes are too high!

In our region, the population has been stagnant for a long time. Some well off families are always building new homes out in exurbia, so there is a very strong filtering process. Households buying existing homes can buy into areas that were built for people with higher (at the time) incomes. This means that as the years go by, most neighborhoods transition to lower and lower income households. The oldest houses are abandoned and demolished. Prices never rise faster than inflation, and are frequently falling.

Given that situation, people around here are always trying to recruit well-off buyers to their neighborhoods. Seven years ago, when we were looking for our current house, and again now, dozens of people have tried to convince us to buy in their neighborhood (city or suburb). People at work, at playgroups, at the doctor’s office, etc. When we park our car in front of a house with a for sale sign, it is not unusual for neighbors to approach us and try to sell us on their block. I know this will sounds bizarre to people in strong housing markets, but this has been our experience in the Rust Belt.

The housing market in most of the country doesn’t match the housing markets in the strongest areas when it comes to price appreciation. Hence it shouldn’t be surprising that areas with less price appreciation often feature homeowners and real estate agents who are constantly trying to boost prices in their own neighborhoods.

As far as the OP’s personal situation goes, he is responsible for his own family to a far greater extent than he might be responsible for his neighbors so he shouldn’t feel guilty about wanting a better environment for his children to grow up in.

 

[CradleJourney]

Cradle,
If the neighbor’s “X” was substantial, I would probably wish them well on their way. Substantial reasons could be a job transfer, a child that needs a special school across town, elderly parents who need their children closer, their house was burglarized and they don’t feel safe, etc.

If their reasons are shallow or sinful, I might try to talk them out of it. For example if they said, “I’m tired of being around working-class and low-income people. I’m moving somewhere that they can’t afford.” Really? Of course, most people are too politically correct to say that. They tell you (maybe tell themselves) some other reason. Taxes are too high!

In our region, the population has been stagnant for a long time. Some well off families are always building new homes out in exurbia, so there is a very strong filtering process. Households buying existing homes can buy into areas that were built for people with higher (at the time) incomes. This means that as the years go by, most neighborhoods transition to lower and lower income households. The oldest houses are abandoned and demolished. Prices never rise faster than inflation, and are frequently falling.

Given that situation, people around here are always trying to recruit well-off buyers to their neighborhoods. Seven years ago, when we were looking for our current house, and again now, dozens of people have tried to convince us to buy in their neighborhood (city or suburb). People at work, at playgroups, at the doctor’s office, etc. When we park our car in front of a house with a for sale sign, it is not unusual for neighbors to approach us and try to sell us on their block. I know this will sounds bizarre to people in strong housing markets, but this has been our experience in the Rust Belt.

Okay - so did you answer your own question then about what you should do? You said you needed a larger home, which seems a substantial reason for me to buy a new home, but by your own definition, not necessarily one farther out. I better understand about your concern regarding the Rust Belt. So why not start close to where you are, and just widen the circle till you find 3 or 4 properties that would suit and take the one that seems best to you? If you end up out in the suburbs, then so be it. If not, so be it. (Assuming spouse and family are on board and other factors are equal.)

I kind of understand since my own kids attend public school (which I feel called for them to do) rather than the local Catholic school. Upon reflection many comments I’ve heard regarding that choice mirror concerns about getting away from “those” people that you may have run into. For us, that decision was made based on best interest and on conscience. I know it wouldn’t be the best choice for others but it is (I feel strongly) for us. But just like it wouldn’t be wrong for us to send them to the Catholic school - nor wrong for them to attend the public school - I don’t see where staying or going is necessarily wrong for you either. There are opportunities and blessings in both choices.