Mozart & the Mass

[ZDHayden]

Hello all. I have always been a great lover of Mozart’s music. In my honest opinion, his Mass in C Minor is some of the most beautiful music I’ve ever heard (too bad it’s incomplete!).

My question is, in theory, could one of Mozart’s (complete, like one of his numerous Missæ breves) Masses be used validly today (assuming one were able to find a suitable parish at a supporting diocese and with enough skilled musicians who know the music, etc.)?

This is but an idle question borne simply of listening to the Great Mass in C Minor’s Kyrie.
To share the goodness:
Thank you.

 

[OraLabora]

Yes of course. I have a marvelous recording of Mozart’s Coronation Mass performed by the Vienna Philharmonic conducted by Herbert von Karajan. It was an actual Mass sung by His Holiness John Paul II at the St. Peter’s in Rome, on the feast of St. Peter and St. Paul.

It’s a 1986 recording and the Mass is in the OF.

 

[DianaCC]

Yes but you would have to make up for the missing parts. We do symphonic masses at least once a year.

 

[LilyM]

Hello all. I have always been a great lover of Mozart’s music. In my honest opinion, his Mass in C Minor is some of the most beautiful music I’ve ever heard (too bad it’s incomplete!).

My question is, in theory, could one of Mozart’s (complete, like one of his numerous Missæ breves) Masses be used validly today (assuming one were able to find a suitable parish at a supporting diocese and with enough skilled musicians who know the music, etc.)?

This is but an idle question borne simply of listening to the Great Mass in C Minor’s Kyrie.
To share the goodness:
Thank you.

Of course they can be, and moreover they are.

At the Cathedral where I used to live (Sydney Australia) I’ve been to one Mass which from memory was a complete Mozart mass, and just gloriously done. I’m not knowledgeable enough to remember which one it was.

I’m curious as to why you would think there might be an issue with it.

 

[TheMc]

Yes but you would have to make up for the missing parts. We do symphonic masses at least once a year.

What parts? The only part of the ordinary I would think is missing is the memorial acclamation. If you really wanted to be authentic, you would chant all the propers.

 

[TheMc]

Hello all. I have always been a great lover of Mozart’s music. In my honest opinion, his Mass in C Minor is some of the most beautiful music I’ve ever heard (too bad it’s incomplete!).

My question is, in theory, could one of Mozart’s (complete, like one of his numerous Missæ breves) Masses be used validly today (assuming one were able to find a suitable parish at a supporting diocese and with enough skilled musicians who know the music, etc.)?

This is but an idle question borne simply of listening to the Great Mass in C Minor’s Kyrie.
To share the goodness:
Thank you.

Yes, you can.

 

[ZDHayden]

Of course they can be, and moreover they are.

At the Cathedral where I used to live (Sydney Australia) I’ve been to one Mass which from memory was a complete Mozart mass, and just gloriously done. I’m not knowledgeable enough to remember which one it was.

I’m curious as to why you would think there might be an issue with it.

I was curious as I had known that it was at one point done, but I had not heard of such being done recently (until a poster above and yourself notified me of real examples!) I apologize for my relative ignorance - my experience with the Mass is simply what I can attend and what I can find video of.

It is certainly good to know that it CAN and IS done! I hope to one day attend such a Mass.

 

[TrueLight]

Hello all. I have always been a great lover of Mozart’s music. In my honest opinion, his Mass in C Minor is some of the most beautiful music I’ve ever heard (too bad it’s incomplete!).

My question is, in theory, could one of Mozart’s (complete, like one of his numerous Missæ breves) Masses be used validly today (assuming one were able to find a suitable parish at a supporting diocese and with enough skilled musicians who know the music, etc.)?

This is but an idle question borne simply of listening to the Great Mass in C Minor’s Kyrie.
To share the goodness:
Thank you.

Thank you so much for exposing me to something new.

I have actually sang the Gloria in Excelsis deo as a Protestant, but at that time I did not understand anything about Catholicism or the structure of a mass. Now that I know the different parts of the mass, Credo, Kyrie etc and their role in the mass, this music is even more beautiful to me.

So you introduced me to a new experience of listening to Mozart in light of the Mass.

And I know people don’t want to hear about Bach on this forum, but this post encouraged me to go listen to Bach’s Mass in B Minor, which I am seeing with new eyes as well.

 

[ProVobis]

And I know people don’t want to hear about Bach on this forum, but this post encouraged me to go listen to Bach’s Mass in B Minor, which I am seeing with new eyes as well.

But many people do like Bach and that particular work. And I’ve heard Mozart’s Sparrow Mass being used in both the OF and EF.

 

[Chatter163]

Our parish’s small choir sings polyphonic Mass settings on a regular basis, including those of Mozart.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I think a century or so ago the use of concert pieces in mass was forbidden. However, the ban was often ignored, and I think has been dropped.

 

[Cat]

I would have a bit of a problem with this kind of music if it were used in an actual Mass, other than for something special once a year or so.

To me, as a musician, these pieces are concert pieces, suitable for performing.

I think they’re gorgeous. But I would have a hard time if these settings were used for an actual Mass because I would be thinking, “Performance,” not “Sacrament.”

I just can’t see these pieces as “sacred music.” To me, they are secular pieces, and therefore, it would be inappropriate to use them in Mass just as much as it would be inappropriate to use pieces from Godspell for Mass.

These are difficult works that takes weeks and weeks of rehearsals. I was rehearsal accompanist for the Mozart Requiem Mass several years ago, and it was a long haul and a lot of work. The actual performance utilized a chamber orchestra of local professional musicians (most of whom were not Catholic, and some weren’t even Christian), and a professional organist (I don’t think the organist was Catholic either).

And so I would feel amiss if I did not pay attention to music and ignore pretty much everything else, since I know how much work goes into preparing these pieces.

There was possibly a time when this kind of music was the norm in Mass, and these pieces were used in real Masses, not in concerts. But that time is gone. Nowadays, these pieces are secular concert pieces and IMO, shouldn’t be used, at least in their entirety, for an actual Mass.

Now one possibility is that perhaps they could be used for a TLM? Perhaps this is the kind of music that is the norm. Is it acceptable in this form of Mass to utilize non-Catholic musicians? If the TLM parish has that many professional musicians who could handle Mozart, Bach, etc., well, more power to them! They are blessed.

 

[Chatter163]

Fortunately the Church sees it differently and allows these pieces to be sung at Mass. In fact, she counts sacred polyphony as part of her patrimony. After gregorian chant, polyphony is the next most sacred music. americancatholicpress.org/articlesMotuProprio.html

Our choir members usually number four males and four females. They practice once a week. With a talented conductor, they can sing a dozen different polyphonic Masses. There are certain principles to be followed, which were laid down by Pope St. Pius X, but polyphony is permitted and encouraged.

 

[Melchior_1]

We’ve got people around here who object to Protestants’ music being done at Mass, I imagine a Mason is on the “no thanks” list.

 

[ZDHayden]

We’ve got people around here who object to Protestants’ music being done at Mass, I imagine a Mason is on the “no thanks” list.

Mason? Oh, for the last seven years of his life. Prior, when he wrote the Masses in question, he was a devout Catholic.

Thanks, everyone who’s responded! This has been an interesting thread thus far.

 

[DianaCC]

I think a century or so ago the use of concert pieces in mass was forbidden. However, the ban was often ignored, and I think has been dropped.

It makes sense as a backstopper against excess. That’s why there are so many masses called “Missa Brevis” and hardly any called “Missa Longa”. Brevity had become the exception!

 

[ProVobis]

It makes sense as a backstopper against excess. That’s why there are so many masses called “Missa Brevis” and hardly any called “Missa Longa”. Brevity had become the exception!

Good observation.

 

[m134e5]

Mason? Oh, for the last seven years of his life. Prior, when he wrote the Masses in question, he was a devout Catholic.

Thanks, everyone who’s responded! This has been an interesting thread thus far.

He was still writing the Requiem on his deathbed. I assume he was also an active Mason, since one of the last pieces he wrote had all sorts of masonic elements in it (The Magic Flute). I’ve known otherwise devout Catholics who were Masons (WITHOUT KNOWING BETTER- they were just ignorant about that particular church teaching). I haven’t heard masonry condemned from the pulpit or in catechism classes- I only know it’s wrong is because I’ve studied Church teaching on my own extensively.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with his music at Mass. Ave Verum Corpus is absolutely beautiful on the stage. It is even more beautiful when it is sung by a good church choir who know and mean what they are singing and are in a place where it makes sense to sing it (such as during adoration or a liturgy/procession that’s focused especially on the Eucharist).